Coronavirus General Discussion

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2830
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:32 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:03 am
I’m looking forward to the word karen being retired. Sometimes words come into existence because we feel we need them, but oftentimes the word takes control and we use it because it’s there. We start seeing things through the lens of language instead of (something closer to) objectivity. I don’t like it.
For one thing, it's pretty deeply unfair to people named Karen. I know quite a few of these people and they're wonderful.
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3882
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by sophie » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:04 am

doodle wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:15 pm
I think I'm done here. Farewell, gyroscopicinvesting!
Phew. And here I was about to put doodle on my ignore list. It's sad, Doodle used to be an outstanding contributor to this forum before his banning a few years back. I wonder if it's even the same person???

Maddy - sounds like your state's mask ordinance is a lot looser than New York's. We have no medical exemption. The sole loophole is that you're only required to wear the mask in public places where you can't maintain a 6 foot distance from others. This is somewhat open to interpretation especially on city sidewalks. I found it much easier just to wear my gauze mask. Because of course the governor's executive order says nothing about what material the mask should be. It does specify it has to be a "face covering".

by the way that naturalnews article was priceless!!!!
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3720
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:15 am

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/mit-res ... r%7Cmakeit+


MIT engineers designed an affordable, reusable face mask that’s as effective as an N95 — take a look
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:55 am

Dr. Milton, first speaker, is a professor at the University of Maryland College of Public Health. His MD is from John Hopkins and his Master of Occupational Health and Doctorate of Environmental Health are from Harvard. His presentation was the most informative to me and was more data based than anecdotal based. One interesting comment he made at the end: he lives in the “hottest” spot in Maryland; they are seeing a COVID decrease in the over 65 population and an increase in the under 35 population. Maybe the older folks are staying home and the younger folks are doing the bar/party/beach/mingle closely thing.

The total presentation is about an hour and a half long and has an interesting discussion at the end. If you are short on time, my main take-aways are:

Stay home “alone” as much as you can. If you can’t stay home, avoid crowed spaces if at all possible and the definition of crowded is a lot different for inside vs outside; circulating air droplets (aerosols under 15 microns in size) such as in a closed building or room with HVAC are problematic even up to 25 meters or more. Appears that 2 meter physical distancing outside ‘might' be sufficient in many cases but it is more likely 3 to 10 times that far, or even more, in enclosed spaces. Masks are not a silver bullet, and they probably help the “other” a lot more than the wearer; masks ‘might' reduce chance of being infected by 2/3. Face shields in addition to masks ‘might' help with viral contamination of the eyes as well. Pretty much, it all comes down to how much risk one is willing to take on for themselves, and for those with whom they come into contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cio3rh6ta3w

Enjoy!
Its OK if some people don’t like you, not everyone has good taste.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2830
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Mountaineer, does he have any opinion on the overall strategy? In other words, is everyone destined to get this and the point of these mitigations is to "flatten the curve" so that healthcare isn't overwhelmed? Or is the point to have as few people get it as possible until a vaccine? Or is there something else?
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Maddy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:29 pm

Or is there something else?
In my view, the issue is no longer about a virus (a relative "nothingburger," as it turns out, and not a whole lot different than a bad seasonal flu), but rather about a well-orchestrated effort to tear down the constitutional and cultural underpinnings of our society and to usher in a new world order in which submission to the state is a necessary prerequisite. It's all about creating an environment of unremitting psychological stress and disorientation through a constant parade of unsettling events. "Order through chaos," is a well known Marxist slogan that describes the process by which people, desperate for a return to normalcy, can be induced to willingly turn over their most fundamental freedoms in exchange for the promise of safety.

There has been a longstanding agenda on the part of the transnational elites to divest the people of their individual liberties, to dismantle the constitutional republic in favor of a totalitarian world order, and to pave the way for a post-constitutional society in which the government exerts absolute control over all production and consumption through a China-like system of social controls requiring the suppression of individuality (think masks) and absolute conformity to state-declared norms. (As an aside, it was no coincidence that U.S. technocrats and their allies in government both financed and built the Chinese prototype from the ground up and that a silent, political war is on to defend it.) The history behind this effort is fascinating--and frightening. For those who are interested in delving into it, I'd recommend looking into the 1930s organization known as "Technocracy, Inc." as well as the alliance, several decades later, between David Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski (hope I spelled that right), the political objectives of which were adopted lock, stock and barrel by the United Nations under the euphemistic rubric of "sustainable development." (You didn't think the Green New Deal was about the environment, did you?) Patrick Wood has some excellent YouTube videos that explore the historical development of this political movement from its origins to the present day, and that draw a number of eye-opening connections to what we've witnessed during the course of the last few decades--culminating, most recently in the so-called "CoVid crisis." He and his colleague, the late Antony Sutton, authored several books and academic treatises on the same and related subjects, all of which are meticulously researched and eerily relevant to what we see unfolding today.

In my view, everything we're seeing today (including the global lockdown, the attack on free speech, the censoring of opposing political viewpoints, the decimation of the economy, the destruction of small business, and the fomenting of violent racial and political strife) all speak to a frantic, stepped up effort to create sufficient chaos and fear that the people will willingly accept the "solution." The parallels between today and 1930s Germany are striking.

We are, as far as I am concerned, in a war--where the survival of our constitutional republic and freedoms are at stake. I absolutely will not submit to their new world order by wearing their symbol of submission.
Last edited by Maddy on Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:18 pm, edited 10 times in total.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:32 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 pm
Mountaineer, does he have any opinion on the overall strategy? In other words, is everyone destined to get this and the point of these mitigations is to "flatten the curve" so that healthcare isn't overwhelmed? Or is the point to have as few people get it as possible until a vaccine? Or is there something else?
I don't recall that being discussed.

I do remember Dr. Milton saying he was very conservative when it came to avoiding getting infected with COVID as his father is 102 (and I think taking care of his wife); Dr. Milton said he did not want to do anything that would put him (and thus his father whom he visits) at increased risk. For example, he said he would not fly; said he worked on aircraft systems 20 years ago or so and was not impressed with their interior airflow system design. The other two doctors in the program said they would fly.
Its OK if some people don’t like you, not everyone has good taste.
User avatar
Smith1776
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1614
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Smith1776 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:57 pm

"Try ‘glory holes’ for safer sex during coronavirus, B.C. CDC says"

https://globalnews.ca/news/7204384/coro ... holes-sex/

It's getting weird up here in Canada....

B.C. health officials are recommending an age-old, occasionally cutting-edge tactic for sex during the coronavirus pandemic: “glory holes.”

The B.C. Centre for Disease Control added new recommendations for socially distant sex to its COVID-19 website this week. One of those tips was to try using a “glory hole” — a hole cut into a wall that’s only large enough for a penis to slip through.
For context, Global News is one of our top news sources here, and no this isn't a joke lol.
“My natural state is an outsider, and no matter what group I'm in or where I am, I've always felt like I'm outside the group, and I've always been analyzing the group.” - Michael Burry
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3882
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by sophie » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:10 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:32 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 pm
Mountaineer, does he have any opinion on the overall strategy? In other words, is everyone destined to get this and the point of these mitigations is to "flatten the curve" so that healthcare isn't overwhelmed? Or is the point to have as few people get it as possible until a vaccine? Or is there something else?
I don't recall that being discussed.

I do remember Dr. Milton saying he was very conservative when it came to avoiding getting infected with COVID as his father is 102 (and I think taking care of his wife); Dr. Milton said he did not want to do anything that would put him (and thus his father whom he visits) at increased risk. For example, he said he would not fly; said he worked on aircraft systems 20 years ago or so and was not impressed with their interior airflow system design. The other two doctors in the program said they would fly.
To me, this isn't the right question to ask. The right question is "what is the risk of a serious adverse event, and how does it compare with risks I've already decided to tolerate as a matter of routine?

Compare the risk of having a serious health consequence of COVID to the risk of serious events for things you do without a second thought.

Downhill skiing for ONE day: 0.09% (based on a Norwegian study)
Risk of an accident if you take a single 30 mile trip by car: 0.02%.
Risk of dying in a car crash, per year: 0.01%

And there are plenty more risky behaviors that you guys are welcome to look up if you like:
Owning a swimming pool
Riding a motorcycle
Going windsurfing
Going on a long hike
Going rock climbing

In other words....at what point does this pursuit of absolute safety no longer make any sense? Sure, when COVID is raging around you it would make sense to hole up for a few weeks. I have certainly wished I could do that during the height of flu season every year. But I'm still subject to considerable personal constraints, in a city of 8 million residents in which the # of daily new COVID hospitalizations is in the single digits. Not sure I subscribe to Maddy's interpretation, but she is not the only one who thinks there are reasons other than health for these lockdowns.
User avatar
jalanlong
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:30 am

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:48 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:10 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:32 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 pm
Mountaineer, does he have any opinion on the overall strategy? In other words, is everyone destined to get this and the point of these mitigations is to "flatten the curve" so that healthcare isn't overwhelmed? Or is the point to have as few people get it as possible until a vaccine? Or is there something else?
I don't recall that being discussed.

I do remember Dr. Milton saying he was very conservative when it came to avoiding getting infected with COVID as his father is 102 (and I think taking care of his wife); Dr. Milton said he did not want to do anything that would put him (and thus his father whom he visits) at increased risk. For example, he said he would not fly; said he worked on aircraft systems 20 years ago or so and was not impressed with their interior airflow system design. The other two doctors in the program said they would fly.
To me, this isn't the right question to ask. The right question is "what is the risk of a serious adverse event, and how does it compare with risks I've already decided to tolerate as a matter of routine?

Compare the risk of having a serious health consequence of COVID to the risk of serious events for things you do without a second thought.

Downhill skiing for ONE day: 0.09% (based on a Norwegian study)
Risk of an accident if you take a single 30 mile trip by car: 0.02%.
Risk of dying in a car crash, per year: 0.01%

And there are plenty more risky behaviors that you guys are welcome to look up if you like:
Owning a swimming pool
Riding a motorcycle
Going windsurfing
Going on a long hike
Going rock climbing

In other words....at what point does this pursuit of absolute safety no longer make any sense? Sure, when COVID is raging around you it would make sense to hole up for a few weeks. I have certainly wished I could do that during the height of flu season every year. But I'm still subject to considerable personal constraints, in a city of 8 million residents in which the # of daily new COVID hospitalizations is in the single digits. Not sure I subscribe to Maddy's interpretation, but she is not the only one who thinks there are reasons other than health for these lockdowns.
I agree with you 100%. However, the argument against that I get from my California relatives would be that you going on a long hike does not endanger others. And even if it does to a small degree, it does not endanger them exponentially. We know how many deaths occur from car accidents or motorcycles. Those are fairly static. And when you have such an accident you only affect X number of people. Your accident doesn't grow exponentially into more people having accidents. And when you go to the hospital for your accident you do not cause the staff and patients to have auto accidents by your mere presence.
ahhrunforthehills
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by ahhrunforthehills » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:30 pm

doodle wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:58 pm
Maddy wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:09 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:57 am
If I may ask....how did you pull that off?

I just wear the mask in stores because it's not worth fighting city hall on it. I also go early in the morning or late in the evening, so that I'm in and out of there fast and don't need to stand on line.
Well, for one, I read the governor's order. It laid out a number of exemptions, and I went to work doing what 30 years of legal work taught me to do. I figured out how those exemptions applied to me. I carry a copy of the governor's order delineating the exemptions (you'd be surprised how many store employees and managers have never read it) and a summary of the ADA and the parallel state statute laying out the penalties for noncompliance. They start at $75,000 for the first offense.

I have a number of friends who, by reason of panic attacks, tachycardia, asthma, migraines, moisture-induced acne, actinic keratoses, and plain ol' difficulty breathing have all successfully claimed medical exemptions at the front door. Under the ADA, a store is not permitted to demand documentation or to even ask what the nature of their medical condition is. Not that the Black Shirt monitoring the door at Walmart would have a clue what most of them are, anyway.

Actually, I was turned away once at a hardware store, where the manager refused to recognize my medical exemption. It was about 8:00 in the morning, and by a little after 9, the manager had reversed his stance after I phoned the corporate office and threatened to sue. I had one employee in tears. Okay, I went a little far, and I do feel a little bad about that.

One of these days I'll probably get tired of going through all this sturm und drang, at which point I might try doing what the more creative shoppers at Walmart are doing: https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-07-18- ... appen.html
Typical Karen
This post really had me thinking...

TBH, I didn't even know what "Karen" meant. Honestly, I saw this post and went on with my life thinking nothing of it.

In an unrelated matter, I found myself on urbandictionary today for a different reason. Underneath the word I was looking for (don't ask) it literally said the following:

JUL 21 WORD OF THE DAY

Karen


(2nd example)

Karen refuses to wear a face mask for her 5 minute trip to the supermarket during a pandemic. She harasses the workers, asks to see the manager and threatens to sue."

Anyways, it got me thinking about Doodle's comment, Maddy's reaction, etc.

Maddy basically told a story that was the exact example of the word Doodle used. Then everyone else basically said Doodle was bad. This had me scratching my head a little bit.

I get that nobody likes labels. But her story was literally the definition. I can't even blame Doodle for his response as I see it as a very natural and human reply.

Most of society views people VERY NEGATIVELY that obtain special benefits for very little reason (disclaimer: this is not directed at Maddy personally, I am just speaking in generalities). Most individuals would wait for someone in a wheelchair... but not if they knew that person was just fat and lazy.

The dog on the airplane cabin as a "comfort animal", the fat people skipping the lines at DisneyWorld , etc. (Disney even STOPPED ASKING what your disability is... they just hand out your skip the line pass). Ask any doctor what the threshold is for a handicap parking permit. You will cringe.

It is funny, if I travel with someone with a NOTICEABLE disability outside of the United States they are treated EXCELLENTLY. People literally come running over to help... open doors, cut the line, offer assistance, etc. They ACTUALLY make it easier for the person. The United States is crap (even at the government level where you would expect it to be better).

I once had someone at US Customs/Immigration tell me that it is because EVERYONE in the United States takes advantage and claims to have a disability at the expense of those who really need it... so everyone is basically trained to not "offer" assistance (you have to seek it out by standing in line with all of the liars, complainers, etc.)

Sounds about right.

Although most people in a community WANT to help the disabled... most people REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT to weed out those that are pretending and crucify them.

Coronavirus seems to really have brought the issue to the forefront between those that are community-centric and those that are self-centic in a way that the old Republican vs Democrat never could. A mask is a small inconvenience for 99.9% of people and is therefore an excellent form of measurement on how community-centric you are. No mask, you fail the test. Time to crucify.

Anyone who has ever studied human behavior knows how powerful the opinion of others are on an emotional level. During hunter/gatherer periods, if you willfully endangered your community you would be cast out (which was basically a death sentence). It makes sense that, as a matter of survival, people get REALLY angry when they see the survival of the community being threatened by those that put their own wants first (regardless of the logic that they tell themselves).

No other details matter. Studies don't matter. Either you are pro-community or pro-self. Mask or no mask.
User avatar
technovelist
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 6776
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 pm

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by technovelist » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:39 pm

ahhrunforthehills wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:30 pm

Coronavirus seems to really have brought the issue to the forefront between those that are community-centric and those that are self-centic in a way that the old Republican vs Democrat never could. A mask is a small inconvenience for 99.9% of people and is therefore an excellent form of measurement on how community-centric you are. No mask, you fail the test. Time to crucify.

Anyone who has ever studied human behavior knows how powerful the opinion of others are on an emotional level. During hunter/gatherer periods, if you willfully endangered your community you would be cast out (which was basically a death sentence). It makes sense that, as a matter of survival, people get REALLY angry when they see the survival of the community being threatened by those that put their own wants first (regardless of the logic that they tell themselves).

No other details matter. Studies don't matter. Either you are pro-community or pro-self. Mask or no mask.
So you are the judge of what is pro-community or pro-self?
It must be great to be the king.

But as a humble commoner, I beg your leave to inquire exactly which king you are.

Napoleon, perhaps?
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
Post Reply