Coronavirus General Discussion

[Tortoise]

Your point is well taken.

Personally, I would consider it a good thing if most companies start adopting a policy of sending home employees who show visible/measurable signs of acute sickness (fever, persistent cough, etc.). Chronic conditions like seasonal allergies would obviously be exceptions.

Many people infected with viruses are asymptomatic, but requiring obviously sick employees to go home would at least be a step in the right direction and would reduce the spread of viruses a little bit.

By contrast, allowing people to sue each other and their employers over occasional viral infections would probably be a big mistake. If you think our society is plagued by CYA behavior already, just imagine how much worse it would get if anyone could sue their employer or coworker if they end up in the hospital for some arbitrary reason and then happen to test positive for any number of viruses like the flu, common cold, or the Wuhan.

[CT-Scott]

We were deemed essential, because we do military and networking equipment. Even so, the CEO gave people the option to work at home, which about 80% of the people have been doing. (I come in every day)

But it is coming to a head. He needs/wants more people in the office, and we can certainly keep our social distance, plenty of space. He is starting a transition of people back to the office shortly. Seems, however, there might be a number of people (I don't know home situations, except for one) that will likely balk at coming back in.

What does one do in this case? Tough stuff to deal with.

You say he "needs/wants" more people in the office? How much of that is "need" vs "want"? You should be a good person to answer this since you stated that you've voluntarily chosen to go into the office. I'm curious why you've chosen to do that.

Personally, I've been someone who has "worked from home" about half of my entire career now. I also hate the fairly recent "open office" trend and would be pretty miserable if I was forced to work that way 8+ hours a day.

But one thing, in particular, that I've thought about recently is how *really* miserable I'd be if I had to wear a face mask for 8+ hours/day. Maybe it's mostly me and my stuffy nose, but I go on a grocery store run and I'm absolutely *miserable* within an hour of having a mask covering my mouth/nose. I can't breathe well, and I'm extremely uncomfortable. Wearing that mask for 8+ hours straight? I think I'd be ready to take my own life after day one.

[Kriegsspiel]

But one thing, in particular, that I've thought about recently is how *really* miserable I'd be if I had to wear a face mask for 8+ hours/day. Maybe it's mostly me and my stuffy nose, but I go on a grocery store run and I'm absolutely *miserable* within an hour of having a mask covering my mouth/nose. I can't breathe well, and I'm extremely uncomfortable. Wearing that mask for 8+ hours straight? I think I'd be ready to take my own life after day one.

An ancillary benefit of doing a deep dive into WW I is hearing about the gas attacks and subsequent (shitty) face mask wearing. The other day I was at the store, and I was uncomfortable in my face covering. But I thought about the soldier, a century ago, who was treating a wounded comrade in the trenches. He was perturbed that the wounded appeared to be a teenager. As he was working on him, they heard the *crump* of shells and heard the cries from nearby, "Gas! Gas! Gas!".

They both reached for their masks. Our hero realized his mask had been hit with a bullet or shrapnel, and it was broken and leaking. The kid's eyes widened as he realized this too, and he feebly fought back as the protagonist ripped his gas mask off and left him to die.

It's all relative broski. Memento mori.

[Cortopassi]

We were deemed essential, because we do military and networking equipment. Even so, the CEO gave people the option to work at home, which about 80% of the people have been doing. (I come in every day)

But it is coming to a head. He needs/wants more people in the office, and we can certainly keep our social distance, plenty of space. He is starting a transition of people back to the office shortly. Seems, however, there might be a number of people (I don't know home situations, except for one) that will likely balk at coming back in.

What does one do in this case? Tough stuff to deal with.

You say he "needs/wants" more people in the office? How much of that is "need" vs "want"? You should be a good person to answer this since you stated that you've voluntarily chosen to go into the office. I'm curious why you've chosen to do that.

Personally, I've been someone who has "worked from home" about half of my entire career now. I also hate the fairly recent "open office" trend and would be pretty miserable if I was forced to work that way 8+ hours a day.

But one thing, in particular, that I've thought about recently is how *really* miserable I'd be if I had to wear a face mask for 8+ hours/day. Maybe it's mostly me and my stuffy nose, but I go on a grocery store run and I'm absolutely *miserable* within an hour of having a mask covering my mouth/nose. I can't breathe well, and I'm extremely uncomfortable. Wearing that mask for 8+ hours straight? I think I'd be ready to take my own life after day one.

I am a hardware engineer, need a lab and temperature chamber to do debug on a new product, and am terribly busy. Would be impossible to replicate at home. I've also made the choice since there are only about 8 people going in daily in a building with labs that easily sites 40+, so there is plenty of ability to distance.

Along with the hardware, of course is software, and the bugs we are running into are software and firmware generally, so trying to debug through messaging and email is difficult, and getting old and slows things down immensely. All the software people are working from home.

Note my avatar change is my high school alma mater, and where my youngest is a euphonium player. Obviously all school and band activities are cancelled. Memorial Day parade is cancelled. 4th of July parade is on the chopping block. I am a parent volunteer for the band, and this just sucks. So many things and lives affected.

[CT-Scott]

I am a hardware engineer, need a lab and temperature chamber to do debug on a new product, and am terribly busy. Would be impossible to replicate at home. I've also made the choice since there are only about 8 people going in daily in a building with labs that easily sites 40+, so there is plenty of ability to distance.

Along with the hardware, of course is software, and the bugs we are running into are software and firmware generally, so trying to debug through messaging and email is difficult, and getting old and slows things down immensely. All the software people are working from home.

Gotcha. Yeah, I've been blessed to happen to be a software developer right now. And my wife is similarly fortunate. But I absolutely appreciate the fact that many others can't work from home. My daughter is a Senior in college majoring in Studio Art - Printmaking. This is her final semester where she would have been fine-tuning the portfolio of her best work for a Senior Art Show. Instead, she's at home, where she can't use any of the school's printmaking facilities. She can't really "do her job" without access to those "labs."

[shekels]

Good morning all you Texas Coronaville Captives.

Gov. Greg Abbott to let restaurants, movie theaters and malls open with limited capacity Friday
The businesses must limit occupancy to no more than 25%. WTH...
https://www.texastribune.org/series/cor ... n-antonio/

[dualstow]

Good morning all you Texas Coronaville Captives.

Gov. Greg Abbott to let restaurants, movie theaters and malls open with limited capacity Friday
The businesses must limit occupancy to no more than 25%. WTH...
https://www.texastribune.org/series/cor ... n-antonio/

25% full restaurants? That’s my fantasy come true.

[WiseOne]

The whole concept of "essential businesses" is so maddening. Who is to say what's essential? In Michigan, gardening supplies were not deemed essential but liquor was. In New York, physical therapy sites are not essential but liquor stores are. But, every business is essential to someone.

They should make it about risk. If you can open while keeping social distancing guidelines for employees and customers, you should be allowed to do it.

btw whoever asked the question about strains of COVID having different mortality: that is certainly possible, and I wondered about that in light of China's low reported mortality #s compared to Italy's. The problem is as always that you have to know how many people were infected before you can judge mortality rate. Turns out that we here in NYC stand almost a 25% chance of showing COVID antibodies on a test. I bet I'm positive - a friend had a mysterious pneumonia in mid-February that could easily have been COVID, and I was in her apartment while she was sick (bringing food over). That would mean the mortality is about 0.5% (12,000 deaths to date, population was 8.4 million in 2018) That's about the middle of the range estimated based on the Diamond Princess figures, so there's no reason to think that the European strains are any more deadly than the original.

[shekels]

The whole concept of "essential businesses" is so maddening. Who is to say what's essential? In Michigan, gardening supplies were not deemed essential but liquor was. In New York, physical therapy sites are not essential but liquor stores are. But, every business is essential to someone.

They should make it about risk. If you can open while keeping social distancing guidelines for employees and customers, you should be allowed to do it.

I agree if it is your Business that is being closed it is ESSENTIAL to you.
We as the public can decide if we want to go into the business or not.
I was at a Store like this one and they only allowed 100 people in at a time.
Just like in this PIC the store had people lined up outside without social distancing and people grouped together.

So one has to think if more people were allowed in the store to shop would we grouped together.
I just said screw it, it is not important. An I am not standing in line to shop in the store.

[dualstow]

The whole concept of "essential businesses" is so maddening. Who is to say what's essential? In Michigan, gardening supplies were not deemed essential but liquor was. In New York, physical therapy sites are not essential but liquor stores are.
...

I see nothing wrong so far.
No seriously, that appears to be about essential state revenue.

[GT]

The whole concept of "essential businesses" is so maddening. Who is to say what's essential? In Michigan, gardening supplies were not deemed essential but liquor was. In New York, physical therapy sites are not essential but liquor stores are.
...

I see nothing wrong so far.
No seriously, that appears to be about essential state revenue.

And the true addictive nature of alcohol - The ABC stores in my area would be looted if everyone was asked to go cold turkey

[CT-Scott]

Yeah, it's difficult to justify qualifying a liquor store as being "essential" while deeming any other business to be non-essential.

I was a bit surprised, though, by the news of Georgia allowing restaurants to reopen. I would have figured that restaurants would have been one of the *last* businesses to fully reopen (allow guests to dine inside), while we still don't have a cure/vaccine, asymptomatic people can be carriers, and it's uncertain whether having had COVID-19 previously necessarily makes you immune from getting it again. But maybe this has more to do with Georgia.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with the lockdown and prevention of businesses. I do think that a good argument exists for allowing people to decide whether or not they are willing to risk their own health. It does get more complicated if you believe that asymptomatic carriers endanger the health of others (which seems to be the established wisdom).

But here's my prediction: So long as the things I stated above continue to hold true (no vaccine yet, etc.) I suspect that any restaurants that reopen will find that they're not seeing many customers who *want* to eat there. And, so, I wonder if reopening too early might actually cause them *more* financial harm. Might they have been better off just shutting down altogether (or possibly keeping a skeleton crew for take-out only purposes) versus reopening but not bringing in enough money to afford to pay the larger staff of waiters, etc.?

[dualstow]

The whole concept of "essential businesses" is so maddening. Who is to say what's essential? In Michigan, gardening supplies were not deemed essential but liquor was. In New York, physical therapy sites are not essential but liquor stores are.
...

I see nothing wrong so far.
No seriously, that appears to be about essential state revenue.

And the true addictive nature of alcohol - The ABC stores in my area would be looted if everyone was asked to go cold turkey

They did close the stores in liquor-monopoly Pennsylvania, announcing the last day or two that they'd be open. They had hoped that people would just buy in moderation and were then shocked, shocked to see a line down the block in what was a record-setting day of purchases.

After that, people started driving to NJ, DE and other states for booze, where the police sometimes pulled over everyone with an out-of-state license plate and asked them to go home.

[CT-Scott]

They did close the stores in liquor-monopoly Pennsylvania, announcing the last day or two that they'd be open. They had hoped that people would just buy in moderation and were then shocked, shocked to see a line down the block in what was a record-setting day of purchases.

My brother is in PA and he told me that they finally reopened the liquor stores (a few days back?) and that he's tried calling ahead to order for pickup but ends up sitting on hold forever and eventually hangs up.

[dualstow]

They did close the stores in liquor-monopoly Pennsylvania, announcing the last day or two that they'd be open. They had hoped that people would just buy in moderation and were then shocked, shocked to see a line down the block in what was a record-setting day of purchases.

My brother is in PA and he told me that they finally reopened the liquor stores (a few days back?) and that he's tried calling ahead to order for pickup but ends up sitting on hold forever and eventually hangs up.

Some journalist tried calling and wouldn't give up so that he could write an article based on how many calls it took. It was hundreds. I've also heard that the website crashes every day, all the time.

We really are bunch of silly apes (The human race).

[Tortoise]

But here's my prediction: So long as the things I stated above continue to hold true (no vaccine yet, etc.) I suspect that any restaurants that reopen will find that they're not seeing many customers who *want* to eat there.

Personally, I would feel fine eating inside a restaurant if I test positive for Covid-19 antibodies. It's not yet a guarantee of immunity against reinfection, but it would make me feel comfortable enough to take the risk.

Antibody tests are becoming more widely available, and their accuracy is improving, so we're getting there.

[GT]

Yeah, it's difficult to justify qualifying a liquor store as being "essential" while deeming any other business to be non-essential.

I was a bit surprised, though, by the news of Georgia allowing restaurants to reopen. I would have figured that restaurants would have been one of the *last* businesses to fully reopen (allow guests to dine inside), while we still don't have a cure/vaccine, asymptomatic people can be carriers, and it's uncertain whether having had COVID-19 previously necessarily makes you immune from getting it again. But maybe this has more to do with Georgia.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with the lockdown and prevention of businesses. I do think that a good argument exists for allowing people to decide whether or not they are willing to risk their own health. It does get more complicated if you believe that asymptomatic carriers endanger the health of others (which seems to be the established wisdom).

But here's my prediction: So long as the things I stated above continue to hold true (no vaccine yet, etc.) I suspect that any restaurants that reopen will find that they're not seeing many customers who *want* to eat there. And, so, I wonder if reopening too early might actually cause them *more* financial harm. Might they have been better off just shutting down altogether (or possibly keeping a skeleton crew for take-out only purposes) versus reopening but not bringing in enough money to afford to pay the larger staff of waiters, etc.?

I could see it working the other way as well - Waiters etc.. generate the majority of their wages off tips and high volume- low "dine in" volume would mean they are taking on the risk for every low reward.

[CT-Scott]

Interesting article:

Dr. Fauci Backed Controversial Wuhan Lab With Millions of U.S. Dollars For Risky Coronavirus Research
https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backe ... 0741?amp=1

[Mountaineer]

It always amazes me how we expect perfection, zero mistakes, from everyone - other than ourselves that is.

[Dieter]

It always amazes me how we expect perfection, zero mistakes, from everyone - other than ourselves that is.

Other than self? Does not compute.

[Mountaineer]

It always amazes me how we expect perfection, zero mistakes, from everyone - other than ourselves that is.

Other than self? Does not compute.

Hope this helps: Think about "Monday morning quarterbacks" - "I think so and so should have done .....", or "I never would have done it that way." Or, "what was that idiot thinking?" Or even the old Sinatra song "My way". We tend to think more highly of ourselves than is warranted; maybe our roots in American individualism contribute to our thinking that way. Perhaps I'm biased by most of the "news" in the past several years - lots of naysayers, critics, and finger pointers compared to those who say "they did the best they could with the information available to them at the time".

[vnatale]

It always amazes me how we expect perfection, zero mistakes, from everyone - other than ourselves that is.

Other than self? Does not compute.

Hope this helps: Think about "Monday morning quarterbacks" - "I think so and so should have done .....", or "I never would have done it that way." Or, "what was that idiot thinking?" Or even the old Sinatra song "My way". We tend to think more highly of ourselves than is warranted; maybe our roots in American individualism contribute to our thinking that way. Perhaps I'm biased by most of the "news" in the past several years - lots of naysayers, critics, and finger pointers compared to those who say "they did the best they could with the information available to them at the time".

In this now gargantuan 143 page Topic I'm the first one to put anything here since 5:46 AM yesterday morning??!!

Have we all now accepted this as the "new normal"?

Vinny

[vnatale]

I searched for the post where WiseOne recently had stated how business has overtaken the actual delivery of medicine. I thought it was in this Topic but was unable to find it.

I wanted to ask her if she was familiar with this book:

The Price We Pay: What Broke American Health Care--and How to Fix It

https://smile.amazon.com/Price-We-Pay-A ... 147&sr=8-1

Just started reading it and read these highly illuminating five paragraphs in this preface, Looks like this is a book I'm going to quickly read!

Capture.JPG (130.23 KiB) Viewed 10390 times

Vinny

[Tortoise]

Have we all now accepted this as the "new normal"?

Definitely not. For the petty tyrant governors who are attempting indefinite lockdowns to milk their once-in-a-lifetime sudden omnipotence for everything it's worth, I'm kind of just waiting for public opinion to inevitably blow up in their faces so they'll be forced to reopen their states earlier than planned (which, in the case of my state of CA, is apparently not anytime soon).

We'll need to record everything that happened during these lockdowns so that we can teach future generations how easily seemingly normal people are corrupted by power and how effectively those people can use fear to manipulate large populations and bypass their Constitutional rights.

[doodle]

I searched for the post where WiseOne recently had stated how business has overtaken the actual delivery of medicine. I thought it was in this Topic but was unable to find it.

I wanted to ask her if she was familiar with this book:

The Price We Pay: What Broke American Health Care--and How to Fix It

https://smile.amazon.com/Price-We-Pay-A ... 147&sr=8-1

Just started reading it and read these highly illuminating five paragraphs in this preface, Looks like this is a book I'm going to quickly read!

Capture.JPG

Vinny

America's healthcare system is a national disgrace. I can't exactly pinpoint why it is so broken but I think I would simply refuse to pay any hospital bill I was sent. They could spend the next ten years harassing me and ruining my credit and I still wouldn't give them a penny. I feel bad for the doctors and nurses caught up in the middle of this. The thing that strikes me Everytime I've been to doctor is how complicated the billing process is...seems like an enormous waste of effort and manpower. Imagine if other services and products were sold in the same incredibly complicated way that medical services are.....its absurdly inefficient. I'm also surprised that in today's age we don't have the ability to consent to being included in a national healthcare database so that medical records don't have to be shuffled around between doctors