Bernie's Wish List

[Ad Orientem]

Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?

It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/


All I can say is holy bleep.

[dualstow]

Teslas for all.

[vnatale]

Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?

It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/


All I can say is holy bleep.

As I was watching the debates the other night only one word came to mind to describe Bernie -- parasite.

Vinny

[dualstow]

Hmm, I don’t have a garage, so no problem there.
I do have a pp so Bernie is still a threat, his lovely interview with Cardi B notwithstanding.

[Kriegsspiel]

Related:

Don’t expect electric cars and trucks to get as cheap as their gas-powered rivals anytime soon. A new report from the MIT Energy Initiative warns that EVs may never reach the same sticker price so long as they rely on lithium-ion batteries, the energy storage technology that powers most of today’s consumer electronics. In fact, it’s likely to take another decade just to eliminate the difference in the lifetime costs between the vehicle categories, which factors in the higher fuel and maintenance expenses of standard cars and trucks.

The findings sharply contradict those of other research groups, which have concluded that electric vehicles could achieve price parity with gas-powered ones in the next five years. The lingering price difference predicted by the MIT report could stunt the transition to lower-emission vehicles, requiring governments to extend subsides or enact stricter mandates to achieve the same adoption of EVs and cuts in climate pollution.

link

[GT]

Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?

It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/


All I can say is holy bleep.

From the link:
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."

what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?

[WiseOne]

Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?

It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/


All I can say is holy bleep.

From the link:
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."

what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?

$2.2 trillion for that one item? And mind you it's just one on a list of about 50. Wow, this guy is living someplace I've never been....

It's his proposed tax on all stock/ETF transactions. He's pretending like it would only hit Wall Street traders, and not, say, the entire working population with 401Ks or IRAs, which are going to be hit with lower returns because of this. He's also proposed a wealth tax as well as making all capital gains and dividends taxed as ordinary income. These sources together would pay for, oh, maybe 3 or 4 of his 50 wish list items. No idea how he plans to pay for the rest - not just the items but all the unintended consequences, like colleges raising tuitions sky high because hey, the government is paying the tab, or the floods of people coming across the wide open border to claim all that free health care.

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

[vnatale]

Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?

It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/


All I can say is holy bleep.

From the link:
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."

what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?

$2.2 trillion for that one item? And mind you it's just one on a list of about 50. Wow, this guy is living someplace I've never been....

It's his proposed tax on all stock/ETF transactions. He's pretending like it would only hit Wall Street traders, and not, say, the entire working population with 401Ks or IRAs, which are going to be hit with lower returns because of this. He's also proposed a wealth tax as well as making all capital gains and dividends taxed as ordinary income. These sources together would pay for, oh, maybe 3 or 4 of his 50 wish list items. No idea how he plans to pay for the rest - not just the items but all the unintended consequences, like colleges raising tuitions sky high because hey, the government is paying the tab, or the floods of people coming across the wide open border to claim all that free health care.

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

I completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.

Here is another thought I had today regarding Bernie.

Could you ever picture you being in a meeting with him in which he is leading? All I can picture is him shouting and lecturing during the entire meeting and not accepting anyone else's opinions.

Vinny

[Xan]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

I completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.

I certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.

[vnatale]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

I completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.

I certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.

Basically the tax code says that ALL income from whatever source is taxed unless it is specifically exempted.

And, here is an example.

You and I both start off with $10,000 it on January 1, 2020. You invest it and do nothing with it except let it increase in value. You sell it on January 2, 2021 for $10,000 and pay your $10,000 capital gains tax.

I day trade it and treat it like a business. On December 31, 2020, I have also turned into $20,000, except that I on the $10,000 in profits have to pay regular income tax rates PLUS self-employment taxes since I elected to treat it as a Schedule C business.

What is the rationale for the differences in the way each of us are taxed?

Vinny

[vnatale]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

I completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.

I certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.

And don't forget the effect of inflation over the holding period. If you hold a stock for 25 years and then sell it, the amount of increase in value is partly due to inflation.

What percent of capital gains do you think are from a holding period of 25 years? Where would the inflation be from holding it for a grand total of a year and a day?

Vinny

[WiseOne]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

I completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.

I certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.

And don't forget the effect of inflation over the holding period. If you hold a stock for 25 years and then sell it, the amount of increase in value is partly due to inflation.

Yes, that's a huge issue! Although, you could consider that the dollars you're paying the taxes with are worth a lot less than the ones you used to buy the asset.

[Libertarian666]

"I’m running for president so that, when we are in the White House, the movement we build together can achieve economic, racial, social and environmental justice for all."

Except anyone who has a gun or has wealth in excess of whatever the limit is.
Or believes in traditional marriage, or that there are only two sexes.
Or thinks that citizens should have more rights than illegal aliens.
Or wants to be able to fire people who they don't want as workers anymore.
Or has paid off their student loan debt or didn't have any in the first place.
Or is the wrong skin color (white) or sex (male).

Did I leave anyone out?

[Libertarian666]

Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?

It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/


All I can say is holy bleep.

From the link:
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."

what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?

$2.2 trillion for that one item? And mind you it's just one on a list of about 50. Wow, this guy is living someplace I've never been....

It's his proposed tax on all stock/ETF transactions. He's pretending like it would only hit Wall Street traders, and not, say, the entire working population with 401Ks or IRAs, which are going to be hit with lower returns because of this. He's also proposed a wealth tax as well as making all capital gains and dividends taxed as ordinary income. These sources together would pay for, oh, maybe 3 or 4 of his 50 wish list items. No idea how he plans to pay for the rest - not just the items but all the unintended consequences, like colleges raising tuitions sky high because hey, the government is paying the tab, or the floods of people coming across the wide open border to claim all that free health care.

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

Capital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?

[vnatale]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

Capital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?

Did you miss where WiseOne later pointed out that you are paying the taxes with equally inflated dollars?

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

Capital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?

Did you miss where WiseOne later pointed out that you are paying the taxes with equally inflated dollars?

Vinny

That is an economic error.

Let's say there is a 20% tax rate, and look at two very simple scenarios in which the real value of the asset does not change.

Scenario 1:
You buy an asset for $100.
There is no inflation.
You sell the asset for $100.
You have no nominal gain.
Tax: $0.
Result: You have $100 in real terms, which is the same wealth you had at the beginning.

Scenario 2:
You buy an asset for $100.
There is 100% inflation over the term of your ownership.
You sell the asset for $200.
You have a $100 nominal gain.
Tax: $20.
Result: You have $180 in inflated dollars, which is $90 in real terms, $10 less than you had at the beginning.

Of course the results are worse if the total inflation over your term of ownership is greater.
That's why governments love inflation.

[vnatale]

To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...

Capital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?

Did you miss where WiseOne later pointed out that you are paying the taxes with equally inflated dollars?

Vinny

That is an economic error.

Let's say there is a 20% tax rate, and look at two very simple scenarios in which the real value of the asset does not change.

Scenario 1:
You buy an asset for $100.
There is no inflation.
You sell the asset for $100.
You have no nominal gain.
Tax: $0.
Result: You have $100 in real terms, which is the same wealth you had at the beginning.

Scenario 2:
You buy an asset for $100.
There is 100% inflation over the term of your ownership.
You sell the asset for $200.
You have a $100 nominal gain.
Tax: $20.
Result: You have $180 in inflated dollars, which is $90 in real terms, $10 less than you had at the beginning.

Of course the results are worse if the total inflation over your term of ownership is greater.
That's why governments love inflation.

How does this fit in?

You earn $100 in 2020. However, you defer the earnings to a subsequent year.
There is 100% inflation over the term.
You declare your $100 of earnings.
You have no nominal gain.
Tax: $20
Result you have $80 in inflated dollars, which is $40 in real terms, $40 less than you could have had at the beginning.

Are there flaws in both of our scenarios?

Vinny

[WiseOne]

Well, of course if you are in a real return of zero situation, you will end up losing out because of taxes. However, the idea is that your asset should have a positive real return, and that's the reason why you buy it (and why you took some risks doing it).

I get your overall point that taxes suck. But they also suck when applied to wages - and even worse, wages get hit with FICA. Even if capital gains were taxed at ordinary income rates, they would still have an advantage as they're FICA-exempt.

I think you'd have to argue the cause using the same line of reasoning that resulted in favorable tax treatment of investment income: it is fundamentally better for the economy for you to put investments into the market that earn you a return, than if you simply draw the same amount of money as wages. Lowering taxes on investment income was designed to encourage more investment. The thing is, though, that if people don't invest money they would presumably spend it - which is better yet for the economy. So from the government's point of view, I don't think that tax advantage makes sense.

[Libertarian666]

Well, of course if you are in a real return of zero situation, you will end up losing out because of taxes. However, the idea is that your asset should have a positive real return, and that's the reason why you buy it (and why you took some risks doing it).

I get your overall point that taxes suck. But they also suck when applied to wages - and even worse, wages get hit with FICA. Even if capital gains were taxed at ordinary income rates, they would still have an advantage as they're FICA-exempt.

I think you'd have to argue the cause using the same line of reasoning that resulted in favorable tax treatment of investment income: it is fundamentally better for the economy for you to put investments into the market that earn you a return, than if you simply draw the same amount of money as wages. Lowering taxes on investment income was designed to encourage more investment. The thing is, though, that if people don't invest money they would presumably spend it - which is better yet for the economy. So from the government's point of view, I don't think that tax advantage makes sense.

Saving is better for the economy than spending, because saving allows capital formation.