Familiar?

[jacksonm2]

http://www.vietnampeace.org/blog/antiwa ... ietnam-war

[Xan]

I checked what Harry Browne had to say on the subject:

Governments invariably call upon their citizens to cooperate in efforts for the "public good." They want you to sacrifice to help solve economic crises, foreign-trade problems, and military conflicts; but these things were caused originally by government intervention. Even so, the calls can seem compelling, and social pressure can build on behalf of patriotic efforts. I don't believe that you do anything for your country by fighting in a war (any war), giving up your money, or sacrificing in any way.

Harry was certainly wise in many ways, but he also held some extreme positions that he later walked back. I hope the above is in that category. I don't know how one can say that with a straight face.

[vnatale]

I checked what Harry Browne had to say on the subject:

Governments invariably call upon their citizens to cooperate in efforts for the "public good." They want you to sacrifice to help solve economic crises, foreign-trade problems, and military conflicts; but these things were caused originally by government intervention. Even so, the calls can seem compelling, and social pressure can build on behalf of patriotic efforts. I don't believe that you do anything for your country by fighting in a war (any war), giving up your money, or sacrificing in any way.

Harry was certainly wise in many ways, but he also held some extreme positions that he later walked back. I hope the above is in that category. I don't know how one can say that with a straight face.

I don't know from where that quote was taken but it was his same position in his book regarding how to be free in an unfree world.

Vinny

[Xan]

I checked what Harry Browne had to say on the subject:

Harry was certainly wise in many ways, but he also held some extreme positions that he later walked back. I hope the above is in that category. I don't know how one can say that with a straight face.

I don't know from where that quote was taken but it was his same position in his book regarding how to be free in an unfree world.

Vinny

And he walked back some of those positions as well, I'm particularly thinking of the one on marriage.

[Kriegsspiel]

Potentially sensitive question here, Kriegsspiel. Did you encounter anyone actively trying to recruit neo-Nazis? I would think that most of that happens in the States, and then recruits may decide to enlist to get training and perhaps fighting experience. Probably no time for that once one is on a tour of duty.

You always hear about them in the military and the police force, but I have no anecdotal experience. There were two guys I bumped into at a shooting range, but I didn't know them well enough to ask.

For what it's worth, I'm a support the troops kind of guy. That even includes skinheads, as long as they're fighting for the country.

Nope, not at all. The only thing I remember was reading one article about gang & drug cartel members joining the military for the training, then bringing it back to their gang/cartel. But again, that was just one thing I read about. Never noticed anything akin to what you're referencing in the military.

I do wonder if any of them accidentally form friendships with blacks and other non-whites whom they wouldn't befriend back home, or if they just behave and tolerate those they don't like while serving in the army, marines, etc.

I think you're thinking of the plot to American History X

[dualstow]

LoL, well Edward Norton has been making the rounds on news channels lately. And I made a fight club reference last week. Maybe there was something subconscious brewing.

[WiseOne]

Just so long as you don't start raiding liposuction clinics and making soap.

[dualstow]

Just so long as you don't start raiding liposuction clinics and making soap.

That was a brilliant plot point.

[Kbg]

I’m a retired military guy and I have a seriously difficult time with the confederate and nazi flag thing regardless of someone having served or not...probably more so. It’s like a giant bird finger. As Grant said: I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse.

[vnatale]

I’m a retired military guy and I have a seriously difficult time with the confederate and nazi flag thing regardless of someone having served or not...probably more so. It’s like a giant bird finger. As Grant said: I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse.

Is this the exact quote? It seemed like a word is missing. Otherwise I cannot understand whether he was for or against respecting the foe.

Vinny

[Xan]

I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall

Meaning, he didn't feel at all like rejoicing.

[dualstow]

Google it, Vinny, and you will see.

[vnatale]

Google it, Vinny, and you will see.

1. I refer to it as an internet search as don't believe "Google" = "internet" search. I was an earlier adopter of doing internet searches via Google but in 2013 I came across a web site that let you do an internet search giving you side-by-side results from both Google and Bing. After seeing the results I've been using Bing almost exclusively for my internet searches.

2. Such "Bing" search let to the quote being exact, word for word. My only conclusion is that he definitely was not rejoicing. But he otherwise gave us zero idea what else he was feeling.

Vinny

[dualstow]

Fair enough. Google is a monstrous organization that has trod all over its old “Don’t be evil” slogan (great stock though). However, it is a verb. It’s in the dictionary. So, I will continue to use it — I’m also not going to call you by your pronouns — and feel free to interpret it as Bing it, Duckduckgo search it, or whatever you please.

[vnatale]

Fair enough. Google is a monstrous organization that has trod all over its old “Don’t be evil” slogan (great stock though). However, it is a verb. It’s in the dictionary. So, I will continue to use it — I’m also not going to call you by your pronouns — and feel free to interpret it as Bing it, Duckduckgo search it, or whatever you please.

And, I won't call your by your pronouns!

I think the only time I do use Google is when I'm doing a search on books as I don't think that Bing has that feature.

I do, though, have a GoogleFi cell phone and use GoogleFi for my cell phone service.

Vinny

[dualstow]

Me, too. Great service so far.

[vnatale]

Me, too. Great service so far.

The major attraction for me was that the phones can make calls on WiFi. A year or two earlier I'd finally succumbed to get cell phone service. I think it was Ting. But for the rural area I live the only place I could get service was in my driveway. That was not going to work.

At my building where my office is at, I'm constantly seeing people to into the vestibule or outside use their cell phones. The one day I did use my cell phone it worked perfectly in my office (presumably off WiFi).

Vinny

[Kbg]

Grant was magnanimous at a personal level, but he had no love for the ideals of slavery or the people who favored them by the time the civil war ended. The war changed him and Lincoln, it made them LESS tolerant of slavery. The latter part of the quote was my intent for posting. Bad is bad and the stars and bars and nazi swastika represent bad.

Side note, he’s faring pretty well amongst more modern historians. All history is revisionist, but the modern consensus is that a lot of his bad rap was a deliberate reading/interpretation of history in order to rewrite the root cause of the civil war and depict reconstruction in a bad light.

[Xan]

Grant was magnanimous at a personal level, but he had no love for the ideals of slavery or the people who favored them by the time the civil war ended. The war changed him and Lincoln, it made them LESS tolerant of slavery. The latter part of the quote was my intent for posting. Bad is bad and the stars and bars and nazi swastika represent bad.

Side note, he’s faring pretty well amongst more modern historians. All history is revisionist, but the modern consensus is that a lot of his bad rap was a deliberate reading/interpretation of history in order to rewrite the root cause of the civil war and depict reconstruction in a bad light.

Comparing the Confederate flag to the Nazi swastika is not really fair, IMO.

By the way, the Stars & Bars is a Confederate flag, but probably isn't the one you mean. This is the Stars & Bars:

It's often the selection of people who have to fly a Confederate flag but don't want people to know about it. It's common in "six flags over Texas" displays, for example. The Confederacy's first inclination was to use the Stars & Stripes, and make the federals choose a new flag, because they were the ones performing a revolution. But the Stars & Bars were adopted instead. That proved too similar on the battlefield, so a battle flag was designed (typically now known as "the Confederate flag"). That design was featured in the other two national flags, but was never itself the flag of the government: only of the soldiers serving in defense of their homes.

Regardless, the Confederate flag has flown everywhere that local people have gotten together to attempt to throw off know-everything, do-everything government. For example, at the fall of the Berlin Wall.

[vnatale]

Grant was magnanimous at a personal level, but he had no love for the ideals of slavery or the people who favored them by the time the civil war ended. The war changed him and Lincoln, it made them LESS tolerant of slavery. The latter part of the quote was my intent for posting. Bad is bad and the stars and bars and nazi swastika represent bad.

Side note, he’s faring pretty well amongst more modern historians. All history is revisionist, but the modern consensus is that a lot of his bad rap was a deliberate reading/interpretation of history in order to rewrite the root cause of the civil war and depict reconstruction in a bad light.

I've relayed the following elsewhere, a while ago but....when I was in third grade I read a book on the American presidents. And, from reading that book I decided my three favorites were Jefferson, Lincoln, and Grant. (Which then made me self-declare myself to now be a Republican).

In January 2017 I read this excellent book: https://smile.amazon.com/Grant-Jean-Edw ... l_huc_item Grant

It definitely portrays Grant as being one of our greatest presidents and having tremendous personal character values which he lived out in his life. It was amazing how much he achieved given the many, many low points in his life.

Vinny

[Kbg]

Xan,

I find your posts and board personality to be nothing but pleasant and enjoyable. So let’s put this in the category of I respectfully but strongly disagree and leave it at that.

With a nod toward you being correct on the flag history. I did take consolation in knowing apparently I’m not the first. :-)

[Kbg]

I’m in the process of reading Chernow’s book on Grant. It’s very good. He definitely wins the title of comeback kid.

[Xan]

Xan,

I find your posts and board personality to be nothing but pleasant and enjoyable. So let’s put this in the category of I respectfully but strongly disagree and leave it at that.

With a nod toward you being correct on the flag history. I did take consolation in knowing apparently I’m not the first. :-)

Fair enough! And the flag thing is a very common mistake.