Which camp?

[vnatale]

I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.

I assume you mean the book Vinny started this thread about, rather than the one Krieg just mentioned?

On the general topic, I think it would be strange to go in assuming that men's and women's brains are exactly the same. Why would anyone expect that?

1. Your assumption is correct.

2. Why would it be strange to assume that men's and women's brains are exactly the same? Do men and women have different hearts? Maybe they do. But I've never heard or read that anywhere. Do they have different blood? I'm a numbers / dollars person and biology is not a strength or an interest so maybe I am ignorant of all of this.

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.

[vnatale]

Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.

Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex. Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.

Vinny

the hardware may be the same, but the way it gets wired will always tend toward recognizable differences in men and women. Hormones, chromosomes, dna?, the organs and equipment to bear a child, or produce fertilization for one, and life experience (nurture) will bend men and woman's thinking and way they perceive the world in predictable and different ways.

while nurture is informative to the process and on occasion pivotal, in general i would guess it is the less influential. but also the most talked about because "social justice politics" ..

[Libertarian666]

Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.

Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex.

No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.

Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.

Please cite an example of such a culture.

[vnatale]

Anyone who thinks that a typical man and a typical woman think alike must not know very many of each sex.

Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex.

No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.

Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.

Please cite an example of such a culture.

I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.

And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.

No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?

Vinny

[Kriegsspiel]

2. Why would it be strange to assume that men's and women's brains are exactly the same? Do men and women have different hearts? Maybe they do. But I've never heard or read that anywhere. Do they have different blood? I'm a numbers / dollars person and biology is not a strength or an interest so maybe I am ignorant of all of this.

Vinny

"Men and women have different bodies. The differences are the direct result of evolution. Women's bodies evolved to suit the demands of bearing and rearing children and of gathering plant food. Men's bodies evolved to suit the demands of rising in a male hierarchy, fighting over women, and providing meat to a family.

Men and women have different minds. The differences are the direct result of evolution. Women's minds evolved to suit the demands of bearing and rearing children and of gathering plant food. Men's minds evolved to suit the demands of rising in a male hierarchy, fighting over women, and providing meat to a family.

One paragraph is banal, the second inflammatory."
- Matt Ridley, The Red Queen

Talk about fun passages to quote in 2019, he totally thinks it's banal to say that men and women have different bodies

[Kriegsspiel]

Try The Male Brain and The Female Brain by Brizendine for a basic primer on the differences between male and female brains.

First book is 12 years old while the second is 8 years old. Do they both stand up to the science of today?

Vinny

As far as I can tell, yes.

[Kriegsspiel]

I just finished listening to this woman's presentation on her book: Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She concluded by saying you are either in her camp or the "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" camp.

When the latter book came out in the 80s I instantly rejected it and have never wavered from that.

Therefore I am in her camp.

Which are you?

Vinny

LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.

Here is a quote from her wiki:

Neurotrashers, she says, "extrapolate wildly" and such science can be used for "social engineering" to reinforce perceived male and female roles and status, an example of the kind argument she feels could be deployed is, "You are what your brain can do, and if your brain can’t do tricky things like running a country, designing a bridge, starting a war, you shouldn’t try and society shouldn’t let you."[

Our society doesn't tell girls that they're incapable of X because of their brains. It's quite the opposite.

[sweetbthescrivener]

A counterpoint to her ideas might be the work of Simon Baron Cohen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYy1GXaNNY

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/ ... ianreview6

Why do most men use the phone to exchange information rather than have a chat? Why do so many women love talking about their feelings and relationships? We may suspect profound differences between the sexes but do they stand up to scientific scrutiny?

Simon Baron-Cohen argues that men's and women's brains are made differently: the female brain is hard-wired for empathy, and the male to understand and build systems. Take brother and sister Alex and Hannah. Alex's mother remembers that, as a toddler, he loved toy tractors and fire engines and would happily sit for hours prodding and pressing objects just to see what would happen. By the age of five he was obsessed with compiling football stickers. Music came later - naturally he drew up his own pop charts and stored his tapes in strict order - and in his teens he quickly mastered computers. His mother recalls that the interests just "seemed to come from deep within him". Alex, Baron-Cohen says, has a typical systemising, male or "S" type brain.



Hannah's big passion was people. Even in her early years she loved making them laugh and smile. Hannah learned to talk earlier than her brother and plastered her walls with pictures of kittens and foals. As a teenager she also loved pop music, but rather than carefully cataloguing it, she would dance and sing in front of the mirror with her friends. "She's really good at asking people sensitive questions so that she can explore how they're feeling," her mother says. Baron-Cohen says Hannah has an empathic, female or "E" type brain.

Though I have the feeling that Rippon would respond by saying who are you going to believe, me or Ali G's brother?

Baron-Cohen popped into my head when I first came across this thread, and what do you know, the two have already debated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31c48XUtwVg

[vnatale]

A counterpoint to her ideas might be the work of Simon Baron Cohen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYy1GXaNNY

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/ ... ianreview6

Why do most men use the phone to exchange information rather than have a chat? Why do so many women love talking about their feelings and relationships? We may suspect profound differences between the sexes but do they stand up to scientific scrutiny?

Simon Baron-Cohen argues that men's and women's brains are made differently: the female brain is hard-wired for empathy, and the male to understand and build systems. Take brother and sister Alex and Hannah. Alex's mother remembers that, as a toddler, he loved toy tractors and fire engines and would happily sit for hours prodding and pressing objects just to see what would happen. By the age of five he was obsessed with compiling football stickers. Music came later - naturally he drew up his own pop charts and stored his tapes in strict order - and in his teens he quickly mastered computers. His mother recalls that the interests just "seemed to come from deep within him". Alex, Baron-Cohen says, has a typical systemising, male or "S" type brain.



Hannah's big passion was people. Even in her early years she loved making them laugh and smile. Hannah learned to talk earlier than her brother and plastered her walls with pictures of kittens and foals. As a teenager she also loved pop music, but rather than carefully cataloguing it, she would dance and sing in front of the mirror with her friends. "She's really good at asking people sensitive questions so that she can explore how they're feeling," her mother says. Baron-Cohen says Hannah has an empathic, female or "E" type brain.

Though I have the feeling that Rippon would respond by saying who are you going to believe, me or Ali G's brother?

Baron-Cohen popped into my head when I first came across this thread, and what do you know, the two have already debated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31c48XUtwVg

Wouldn't the citing of Alex and Hannah be the epitome of anecdotal "proof" and entirely un-scientific? And, am I an outlier since I don't use a cell phone for talking, keep my wired phone unplugged at home, hardly ever use my office phone, preferring either email or face-to-face communications?

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

Do the "typical" men all think alike?

The point is that there is no "typical". There can be no assumptions as to how a person is going to think based upon the person's sex.

No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.

Furthermore, picking a country like the United States, there are a lot of cultural pressures that cause many males and many females to turn out a certain way. But in a completely neutral culture there would not be as many similarities within each sex.

Please cite an example of such a culture.

I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.

I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.

And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.

Most people do.

No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?

The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/

[dualstow]

LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.

Sounds like something out of a William Gibson novel.

[vnatale]

No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.



Please cite an example of such a culture.

I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.

I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.

And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.

Most people do.

No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?

The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not men who are in the vast majority in the Senate, Congress, the upper echelons of the military, partners of the Big 4 Accounting firms, similar largest law firms, largest business consulting organizations...and so on?

[vnatale]

LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.

Sounds like something out of a William Gibson novel.

Here, you (or anyone else) can see and hear the same thing I (mainly) heard yesterday....

https://www.c-span.org/person/?ginarippon

Vinny

[sweetbthescrivener]

the citing of Alex and Hannah be the epitome of anecdotal "proof" and entirely un-scientific? And, am I an outlier since I don't use a cell phone for talking, keep my wired phone unplugged at home, hardly ever use my office phone, preferring either email or face-to-face communications?

It would be if you got all your information about Baron-Cohen's research from a single short quote from an article.

I'm with Libertarian666 on this issue though, anyway.

Much more important what is happening in the courts and the actual lives of men and women than what a scientist with an ax to grind has to say.

You as well, Vinny, sound like you have already come to your conclusions, because your dismissals of opposing opinions have been on about the level of Men/Mars Women/Venus.

The woman you posted about is straw manning and you seem to be too.

[vnatale]

the citing of Alex and Hannah be the epitome of anecdotal "proof" and entirely un-scientific? And, am I an outlier since I don't use a cell phone for talking, keep my wired phone unplugged at home, hardly ever use my office phone, preferring either email or face-to-face communications?

It would be if you got all your information about Baron-Cohen's research from a single short quote from an article.

I'm with Libertarian666 on this issue though, anyway.

Much more important what is happening in the courts and the actual lives of men and women than what a scientist with an ax to grind has to say.

You as well, Vinny, sound like you have already come to your conclusions, because your dismissals of opposing opinions have been on about the level of Men/Mars Women/Venus.

The woman you posted about is straw manning and you seem to be too.

I was reacting to the quote provided to us regarding Baron-Cohen's research.

And, what is your basis for asserting: "what a scientist with an ax to grind has to say". My judgment was she was being at true scientist following what the facts actual stated, the opposite of what you assert.

Why am I not allowed to have "already" come to my conclusions? I'm almost always "already" coming to my conclusions. Otherwise, how could I state an opinion?

And, I am unfamiliar with the term "straw manning". I will now do an internet search of it. Now I see you are saying the woman and myself are guilty of using a straw man argument.

Vinny

[jacksonm2]

I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?

[vnatale]

I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?

Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.

That said, and I've not stated this yet, I fully believe in the average physical differences between men and women, i.e., size, strength, speed. That is why we have not yet had one women play in any professional men's major league. Not even in the minors as far as baseball and basketball go. And, because of those differences women's professional basketball can never potentially be as exciting as men's professional basketball. The overall average skills brought to the sport is generally going to be far below what the men bring to it. But if a job that strictly requires brains (and other non-physical attributes) then....

Vinny

[jacksonm2]

I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?

Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.

I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.

[Mountaineer]

I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?

Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.

I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.

Absolutely women's highest value vocation. Just like being a father is a man's highest value vocation. In my opinion, those who preach equality of the sexes have not though through the logic (or rather illogic) of their statements (that is said as kindly as I can). The only real equality of the sexes is in God's eyes.

[vnatale]

Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.

I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.

Absolutely women's highest value vocation. Just like being a father is a man's highest value vocation. In my opinion, those who preach equality of the sexes have not though through the logic (or rather illogic) of their statements (that is said as kindly as I can). The only real equality of the sexes is in God's eyes.

What does that say for those of either sex who have no children?

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.

I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.

And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.

Most people do.

No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?

The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not men who are in the vast majority in the Senate, Congress, the upper echelons of the military, partners of the Big 4 Accounting firms, similar largest law firms, largest business consulting organizations...and so on?

This is an elementary analytical error called "the apex fallacy".
Yes, it is true that the top 0.1% of positions of power are mostly occupied by men.
However, the other 99.9% of men have far less power than women in our current society.
Hope that helps.

[vnatale]

A counterpoint to her ideas might be the work of Simon Baron Cohen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYy1GXaNNY

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/ ... ianreview6

Why do most men use the phone to exchange information rather than have a chat? Why do so many women love talking about their feelings and relationships? We may suspect profound differences between the sexes but do they stand up to scientific scrutiny?

Simon Baron-Cohen argues that men's and women's brains are made differently: the female brain is hard-wired for empathy, and the male to understand and build systems. Take brother and sister Alex and Hannah. Alex's mother remembers that, as a toddler, he loved toy tractors and fire engines and would happily sit for hours prodding and pressing objects just to see what would happen. By the age of five he was obsessed with compiling football stickers. Music came later - naturally he drew up his own pop charts and stored his tapes in strict order - and in his teens he quickly mastered computers. His mother recalls that the interests just "seemed to come from deep within him". Alex, Baron-Cohen says, has a typical systemising, male or "S" type brain.



Hannah's big passion was people. Even in her early years she loved making them laugh and smile. Hannah learned to talk earlier than her brother and plastered her walls with pictures of kittens and foals. As a teenager she also loved pop music, but rather than carefully cataloguing it, she would dance and sing in front of the mirror with her friends. "She's really good at asking people sensitive questions so that she can explore how they're feeling," her mother says. Baron-Cohen says Hannah has an empathic, female or "E" type brain.

Though I have the feeling that Rippon would respond by saying who are you going to believe, me or Ali G's brother?

Baron-Cohen popped into my head when I first came across this thread, and what do you know, the two have already debated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31c48XUtwVg

I JUST concluded watching the debate. After seeing Rippon yesterday I had a bias. And, that bias was not changed after listening to all three of them. I view Rippon as a true scientist. I'm biased towards scientists. Simon Baron-Cohen is a psychologist. I'm biased against them because psychologists deal with the soft sciences. The unprovable. I'm forgetting who the third person was (also a woman) and what her profession was. She was probably the weakest of the three.

Vinny

[Xan]

Slightly off-topic, but I highly recommend Michael Lewis's "The Undoing Project". In addition to being fascinating like most/all of his work, reading this I discovered I had no idea what psychologists actually did, or how interesting it is.

[boglerdude]

For me theres nothing more interesting, psychology chips away at our identity. If we live in a cause and effect world, determinism, theres no free will. We're all just chimping out, hopelessly flailing against an inevitable future. Or maybe that's just my excuse to drink!