Which camp?

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dualstow
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Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:36 am
LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash ;) I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.
Sounds like something out of a William Gibson novel.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pm

technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:16 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:50 am
technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:43 am


No, there is a rebuttable presumption. To use MBTI terminology, most women are Fs, and most men are Ts. Thus, when dealing with a woman whom you know nothing else about, it is wise to assume that she is an F, which means that she makes decisions primarily via emotion rather than thought. With an otherwise unknown man, you can generally assume that he will make decisions primarily based on thought rather than emotion.

Of course once you are acquainted with a particular person it's usually not hard to figure out his/her preference in this matter, so then the presumption is either confirmed or refuted.



Please cite an example of such a culture.
I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.
I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.
technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.
Most people do.
technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?
The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/
Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not men who are in the vast majority in the Senate, Congress, the upper echelons of the military, partners of the Big 4 Accounting firms, similar largest law firms, largest business consulting organizations...and so on?
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:46 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:20 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:36 am
LOL, I just googled the author of Gender And Our Brains, Gina Rippon. She calls the book I recommended, The Female Brain, neurotrash ;) I'll see if I can get a hold of Rippon's book though, since I would like to see what she says.
Sounds like something out of a William Gibson novel.
Here, you (or anyone else) can see and hear the same thing I (mainly) heard yesterday....

https://www.c-span.org/person/?ginarippon

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Re: Which camp?

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:04 pm

the citing of Alex and Hannah be the epitome of anecdotal "proof" and entirely un-scientific? And, am I an outlier since I don't use a cell phone for talking, keep my wired phone unplugged at home, hardly ever use my office phone, preferring either email or face-to-face communications?
It would be if you got all your information about Baron-Cohen's research from a single short quote from an article.

I'm with technovelist on this issue though, anyway.

Much more important what is happening in the courts and the actual lives of men and women than what a scientist with an ax to grind has to say.

You as well, Vinny, sound like you have already come to your conclusions, because your dismissals of opposing opinions have been on about the level of Men/Mars Women/Venus.

The woman you posted about is straw manning and you seem to be too.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:12 pm

sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:04 pm
the citing of Alex and Hannah be the epitome of anecdotal "proof" and entirely un-scientific? And, am I an outlier since I don't use a cell phone for talking, keep my wired phone unplugged at home, hardly ever use my office phone, preferring either email or face-to-face communications?
It would be if you got all your information about Baron-Cohen's research from a single short quote from an article.

I'm with technovelist on this issue though, anyway.

Much more important what is happening in the courts and the actual lives of men and women than what a scientist with an ax to grind has to say.

You as well, Vinny, sound like you have already come to your conclusions, because your dismissals of opposing opinions have been on about the level of Men/Mars Women/Venus.

The woman you posted about is straw manning and you seem to be too.
I was reacting to the quote provided to us regarding Baron-Cohen's research.

And, what is your basis for asserting: "what a scientist with an ax to grind has to say". My judgment was she was being at true scientist following what the facts actual stated, the opposite of what you assert.

Why am I not allowed to have "already" come to my conclusions? I'm almost always "already" coming to my conclusions. Otherwise, how could I state an opinion?

And, I am unfamiliar with the term "straw manning". I will now do an internet search of it. Now I see you are saying the woman and myself are guilty of using a straw man argument.

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:13 pm

I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:30 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:13 pm
I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?
Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.

That said, and I've not stated this yet, I fully believe in the average physical differences between men and women, i.e., size, strength, speed. That is why we have not yet had one women play in any professional men's major league. Not even in the minors as far as baseball and basketball go. And, because of those differences women's professional basketball can never potentially be as exciting as men's professional basketball. The overall average skills brought to the sport is generally going to be far below what the men bring to it. But if a job that strictly requires brains (and other non-physical attributes) then....

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Re: Which camp?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:56 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:30 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:13 pm
I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?
Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.
I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:04 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:56 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:30 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:13 pm
I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?
Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.
I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.
Absolutely women's highest value vocation. Just like being a father is a man's highest value vocation. In my opinion, those who preach equality of the sexes have not though through the logic (or rather illogic) of their statements (that is said as kindly as I can). The only real equality of the sexes is in God's eyes.
Romans 1:16-32
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Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:06 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:04 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:56 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:30 pm


Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.
I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.
Absolutely women's highest value vocation. Just like being a father is a man's highest value vocation. In my opinion, those who preach equality of the sexes have not though through the logic (or rather illogic) of their statements (that is said as kindly as I can). The only real equality of the sexes is in God's eyes.
What does that say for those of either sex who have no children?

Vinny
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Re: Which camp?

Post by technovelist » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:30 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:16 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:50 am


I have loved the Myers Briggs. When I introduced to it over 30 years ago it became an avocation for several years. I ended up formally or informally testing over 100 people. But I later read (and was convinced) that it really has no scientific basis.
I have found it extremely useful in predicting how people will react to various stimuli.
technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
And, I've just recently read (and, been convinced) that deep down, for major decisions just about all of all decide based upon how we feel.
Most people do.
technovelist wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:31 am
No such culture exists because I don't believe there are any female dominated cultures or neutral cultures. Are there any that are not predominantly male run?
The US is female dominated. If you don't believe me, spend a day in divorce court and watch men being shredded, or watch what happens to any man who is accused of doing anything inappropriate to a woman, with or without any evidence that it even occurred (especially if the man isn't a Democrat).

Or take a look at the applications for obtaining or renewing a professional license such as an insurance license. If you are behind on child support payments, expect to have your license revoked even though this has absolutely nothing to do with your qualifications for selling insurance.

Here's a description of some of the disadvantages of being male in the US today: https://menslaws.com/men-now-officially ... izens-now/
Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not men who are in the vast majority in the Senate, Congress, the upper echelons of the military, partners of the Big 4 Accounting firms, similar largest law firms, largest business consulting organizations...and so on?
This is an elementary analytical error called "the apex fallacy".
Yes, it is true that the top 0.1% of positions of power are mostly occupied by men.
However, the other 99.9% of men have far less power than women in our current society.
Hope that helps.
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Re: Which camp?

Post by technovelist » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:35 pm

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:56 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:30 pm
jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:13 pm
I'm putting this in the category of "okay, even if what you say is true, so what?"

It's hard to believe that the process of natural selection favoring a reproductive benefit wouldn't have resulted in some difference between male and female brains. But even if both males and females ended up with identical CPU's along the way, what are we supposed to do with that information?
Not assume that certain roles / positions are male ones while others are female ones.
I think we're pretty close to already being there. Just look at doctors and lawyers.

In my profession as a software engineer I did not find this to be true at all but it wasn't always that way. It was before my time which is saying a lot since I started programming computers in the 70's, but I've read that there was a time when women dominated my field.

I do tend to think that women will always excel at being mothers however and there is nothing we can do about that.
Yes, it is true that the beginning of software engineering was completely female-dominated, starting with its inventor.
And that female domination continued for over 100 years until 1949, after which time its practitioners have been overwhelmingly male.
I wonder why it changed so dramatically?
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