70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

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WiseOne
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by WiseOne » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:27 am

Sure, because they're all weighed down by student loans and credit card debt. So they don't have any money that can be donated to the socialist cause. Once they start accumulating wealth, watch those opinions change. It's part of the normal life cycle.
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by ochotona » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:53 am

We have Socialism now, mostly for banks.
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by moda0306 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:21 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:27 am
Sure, because they're all weighed down by student loans and credit card debt. So they don't have any money that can be donated to the socialist cause. Once they start accumulating wealth, watch those opinions change. It's part of the normal life cycle.
Maybe this is a semantic thing, but as I've learned to view the difference between wealth and labor, and how they are taxed, I've come to the opposite conclusion about when I'll be the most averse to taxes.

For better or for worse, I'm arranging my affairs for relatively "early" retirement, or financial independence if you prefer the term, and I will pay far less in taxes once I have several hundred thousand saved up. At that point, I'll be able to generate my current lifestyle expenses FAR more tax-efficiently than I would be even if I made far less than I do now, but subject to employment and fed/MN income taxes.

Simply put, funding a given lifestyle is usually far easier tax-wise from wealth then it is from labor. If anything, as I've gained wealth (along with all the other little side-research many here have tended towards), I've realized that it's making me more radical on tax policy than in my younger days, when I saw wealth as merely a result of a marginal propensity to work hard and save, both of which I mostly had.
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by Kbg » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:39 am

From a language usage standpoint, define socialist? I’ll bet if we asked folks on this board who appear for the most part to be older and the younger generations surveyed what they consider socialism is probably quite different. In today’s politics I’m sure Americans who went through the Great Depression would be considered highly socialist. It’s not that surprising millennials have more socialistic views given they took the brunt of the Great Recession full on as they were heading out into the world as adults. Kids moving back in (usually to a farm) during the great depression wasn’t uncommon then either.

Life informs views and those of us in our 50s need to remember we hit the job market at an awesome time in the economic cycle. I know for a fact my kids have it far more difficult than I did and they are all college grads who are pretty squared away with useful not useless degrees. Finally, for those of us who went to public college back then we were the recipients of “socialistic” amounts of state funding in today’s terms.

No doubt there is a balance in all this or you kill the golden goose which is a capitalism. However, capitalism is fairly brutal unfettered which should come as no surprise. For it to work, it has to work for the large majority or alternatives become more attractive.

The semantics point is a good one, definitionally there are very few actual socialists in American politics. The vast majority of them are European style capitalists.
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by WiseOne » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:24 pm

I'm afraid I have a much simpler definition:


"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

-- Margaret Thatcher


People without money to be appropriated for the cause tend to be for socialism, because they figure they'll be on the receiving end, which is why that poll is the way it is. If you took that in practically any year since the word "socialism" became well known, the results would probably be the same.

The end game of socialism is something I fear I'm already seeing in New York City & state: in the wake of the SALT deduction limit, the exodus of high income residents has accelerated. Because of the state's generous welfare system, paid for of course by those high income residents, the number of people on the receiving end is steadily increasing - about 1/3 of the state's population is one some form of government assistance. Unless something changes soon, this not going to end well.
Simonjester wrote:
i think trump just declared he is moving his permanent residence to Florida, (re the wealthy leaving )

the positive spin is, now all presidential political news can be tagged "# Florida man" ;D
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by WiseOne » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:18 am

And the mayors and governors who created this situation are blaming Trump and the SALT deduction limit, instead of doing anything to solve the problem. It is true that the SALT limit exacerbated the problem, but it was already happening before that.

These guys are living in an alternative reality. And that's the other problem with socialism: its adherents don't understand that the people they depend on to provide the largesse might choose not to play their assigned role. As long as people are more willing to move than to put up with an ever-increasing tax burden, socialist policies simply cannot work. They can get away with a limited form of it because there is a threshold below which people will put up with it, but once you cross the line it's all over.
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by shekels » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:50 am

It seems religion is on the decline with capitalism.
Correlated?
https://www.pewforum.org/2010/02/17/rel ... llennials/
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:15 am

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:18 am
And the mayors and governors who created this situation are blaming Trump and the SALT deduction limit, instead of doing anything to solve the problem. It is true that the SALT limit exacerbated the problem, but it was already happening before that.

These guys are living in an alternative reality. And that's the other problem with socialism: its adherents don't understand that the people they depend on to provide the largesse might choose not to play their assigned role. As long as people are more willing to move than to put up with an ever-increasing tax burden, socialist policies simply cannot work. They can get away with a limited form of it because there is a threshold below which people will put up with it, but once you cross the line it's all over.
I would tend to agree with all you have to say here!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:21 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:16 am
WiseOne wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:18 am
And the mayors and governors who created this situation are blaming Trump and the SALT deduction limit, instead of doing anything to solve the problem. It is true that the SALT limit exacerbated the problem, but it was already happening before that.

These guys are living in an alternative reality. And that's the other problem with socialism: its adherents don't understand that the people they depend on to provide the largesse might choose not to play their assigned role. As long as people are more willing to move than to put up with an ever-increasing tax burden, socialist policies simply cannot work. They can get away with a limited form of it because there is a threshold below which people will put up with it, but once you cross the line it's all over.
It's not just Socialism, although that's a big part. The out of control public pension system is bankrupting governments on every level (except the Federal, bc they can print money, but it still morphs into higher taxes) but they don't want to change anything bc the public sector unions are huge donors to the politicians. >:(
Well yet another item in which I am in FULL agreement with you!

Politicians are constantly harping how teachers are not paid enough. But if one analyzes the benefits they get, they are among the most HIGHLY paid per hour.

I have a CPA friend who once said to me regarding retirement that there are two types of people: "Those who worry about retirement. And, teachers."



Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:49 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:14 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:21 am
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:16 am

It's not just Socialism, although that's a big part. The out of control public pension system is bankrupting governments on every level (except the Federal, bc they can print money, but it still morphs into higher taxes) but they don't want to change anything bc the public sector unions are huge donors to the politicians. >:(
Well yet another item in which I am in FULL agreement with you!

Politicians are constantly harping how teachers are not paid enough. But if one analyzes the benefits they get, they are among the most HIGHLY paid per hour.

I have a CPA friend who once said to me regarding retirement that there are two types of people: "Those who worry about retirement. And, teachers."



Vinny
You do realize almost all of those contributions go to Democrats bc Dems are the ones keeping this ponzi scheme going?
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/ ... hp?ind=P04
Yes, I fully realize that the teacher's union contribution almost all go to Democrats as do most unions. And, as I elsewhere stated, I'm generally anti-union except for the Major League Baseball Player's Union because they are so incredibly effective in what they do for their union members. Its existence has made a tremendous difference for players compared to when there was no union.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:21 am
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:16 am
WiseOne wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:18 am
And the mayors and governors who created this situation are blaming Trump and the SALT deduction limit, instead of doing anything to solve the problem. It is true that the SALT limit exacerbated the problem, but it was already happening before that.

These guys are living in an alternative reality. And that's the other problem with socialism: its adherents don't understand that the people they depend on to provide the largesse might choose not to play their assigned role. As long as people are more willing to move than to put up with an ever-increasing tax burden, socialist policies simply cannot work. They can get away with a limited form of it because there is a threshold below which people will put up with it, but once you cross the line it's all over.
It's not just Socialism, although that's a big part. The out of control public pension system is bankrupting governments on every level (except the Federal, bc they can print money, but it still morphs into higher taxes) but they don't want to change anything bc the public sector unions are huge donors to the politicians. >:(
Well yet another item in which I am in FULL agreement with you!

Politicians are constantly harping how teachers are not paid enough. But if one analyzes the benefits they get, they are among the most HIGHLY paid per hour.

I have a CPA friend who once said to me regarding retirement that there are two types of people: "Those who worry about retirement. And, teachers."



Vinny
Depends on the state...for the state I live in's largest urban area the teachers got north of 15% raises this year...reason; the pay was so poor that no one would do the job anymore and class sizes were getting near 40 students. The average new teacher retention was 2-3 years and parents finally got fed up. The area is served by several school districts and they actually got in a salary bidding war this summer. The free market in action. :-)
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:40 pm

I recently compared the low-ranked, openly-avoided, public school taxes where I now live, and the tuition of the highly regarded private school I attended as a kid. Per-student spending is about 4x higher here.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: 70% of millennials say they'd vote for a socialist

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:01 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:15 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:21 am
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:16 am

It's not just Socialism, although that's a big part. The out of control public pension system is bankrupting governments on every level (except the Federal, bc they can print money, but it still morphs into higher taxes) but they don't want to change anything bc the public sector unions are huge donors to the politicians. >:(
Well yet another item in which I am in FULL agreement with you!

Politicians are constantly harping how teachers are not paid enough. But if one analyzes the benefits they get, they are among the most HIGHLY paid per hour.

I have a CPA friend who once said to me regarding retirement that there are two types of people: "Those who worry about retirement. And, teachers."



Vinny
Depends on the state...for the state I live in's largest urban area the teachers got north of 15% raises this year...reason; the pay was so poor that no one would do the job anymore and class sizes were getting near 40 students. The average new teacher retention was 2-3 years and parents finally got fed up. The area is served by several school districts and they actually got in a salary bidding war this summer. The free market in action. :-)
I live in Massachusetts and I'd guess that an average elementary school teacher with some years of experience gets paid in the $60,000 - $70,000 range working their 36 weeks of the year. Then upon retirement (after maybe 30 years) gets 80% of that for life and paid health insurance. All of the foregoing is a guess but I'm sure not far off.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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