Is Trump doing a good job?

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Cortopassi
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:31 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:09 am


Cortopassi, the study you are looking for has effectively already been done. Take a look at photos of the early June Black Lives Matter protests in New York City. I bet the photos were carefully vetted to maximize the number of mask wearers shown, but you can easily find non-mask wearing protesters in the photos - especially those shouting into megaphones in the middle of a densely packed crowd. Or masks worn incorrectly, e.g. under the nose. And I doubt very much that rioters, who weren't photographed, were wearing masks. Also of note, many in the audience are people of color (especially those not wearing masks), who have been shown to be especially vulnerable to COVID.

Then take a look at the COVID-19 daily case data published for New York City:
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page

Select "cases, hospitalizations, and deaths". Notice the shape of the curve dropping gradually through May, June, and July (and still dropping). There is no bump in cases following those protests, which you would expect from such risky behavior. QED.
I understand all that Sophie. I am sure protesters were not masked and many rioters were not masked (or if they were smart would have been!)

But I can't reconcile that with the government at all levels telling us to social distance and wear masks and Trump, coming in like this outsider, flaunts ALL of it. If it was 2016 and he was a candidate, maybe. But he is the leader of the government putting out these dictates.

If the band director at our high school took our 140 kids one practice night, told them take off your masks, lets practice this routine like we were supposed to before Covid, the band would be SHUT DOWN instantly. He'd probably get fired.

But Trump gets to get away with it. Are the optics not bad with this?

He has such apparent balls at times going off the cuff. But he won't step over that virus line verbally at least. Come out and say it's overblown. Say we should go for herd immunity and just protect those at risk. His supporters would love that. I would like that. He rails into everything else at his rallies, but he's apparently very careful with his wording and staying away from death counts, etc. Just makes blanket statements like "Open the Schools" without any idea how to actually get that done.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by shekels » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:03 am
Trump, the Uniter In Chief(tm).

Why doesn't he just come out and say it's all BS? His supporters have been for a while.

And again, not that I 100% disagree with him, but he's playing the outsider here, and he is the ultimate insider. If he could only actually sit down and formulate some real strategies, for, say, opening schools, vs. holding rallies, hey, maybe I'd vote for him. No, just tell the hack, stupid governors to open your state. Really helpful.

But it continues to be about stroking his big ass ego.

Oh, it's just Trump being Trump, get over it, right?

I'd like them to prove me wrong. I'd like them to trace all these rally goers and prove it isn't being spread. That would be great data.

And that first line by Kushner is a real beauty.

For You,
Illinois voted for the Governor J. B. Pritzker to do the states Job and formulate real strategies to open schools.
So are you alright with Trump basically taking over the state and making the decisions for the state?
You would be Fine with that?
I know, I would not be fine with it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by technovelist » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:02 am

shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:03 am
Trump, the Uniter In Chief(tm).

Why doesn't he just come out and say it's all BS? His supporters have been for a while.

And again, not that I 100% disagree with him, but he's playing the outsider here, and he is the ultimate insider. If he could only actually sit down and formulate some real strategies, for, say, opening schools, vs. holding rallies, hey, maybe I'd vote for him. No, just tell the hack, stupid governors to open your state. Really helpful.

But it continues to be about stroking his big ass ego.

Oh, it's just Trump being Trump, get over it, right?

I'd like them to prove me wrong. I'd like them to trace all these rally goers and prove it isn't being spread. That would be great data.

And that first line by Kushner is a real beauty.

For You,
Illinois voted for the Governor J. B. Pritzker to do the states Job and formulate real strategies to open schools.
So are you alright with Trump basically taking over the state and making the decisions for the state?
You would be Fine with that?
I know, I would not be fine with it.
If Trump took over the state, he'd be HITLER!!!!
If he doesn't, he's WEAK AND INEFFECTUAL!!!!

See how easy it is for him to do the right thing?
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by sophie » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:15 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:31 am
sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:09 am


Cortopassi, the study you are looking for has effectively already been done. Take a look at photos of the early June Black Lives Matter protests in New York City. I bet the photos were carefully vetted to maximize the number of mask wearers shown, but you can easily find non-mask wearing protesters in the photos - especially those shouting into megaphones in the middle of a densely packed crowd. Or masks worn incorrectly, e.g. under the nose. And I doubt very much that rioters, who weren't photographed, were wearing masks. Also of note, many in the audience are people of color (especially those not wearing masks), who have been shown to be especially vulnerable to COVID.

Then take a look at the COVID-19 daily case data published for New York City:
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page

Select "cases, hospitalizations, and deaths". Notice the shape of the curve dropping gradually through May, June, and July (and still dropping). There is no bump in cases following those protests, which you would expect from such risky behavior. QED.
(selected phrases).
I understand all that Sophie.

But Trump gets to get away with it. Are the optics not bad with this?

He has such apparent balls at times going off the cuff.
Do you really understand all that?

Or are you saying that hard evidence doesn't figure into whether or not people should be censured, fined, arrested, fired, or whatever for not wearing masks? If so, then please tell me so I can save myself time by not posting such evidence. I'll remind you of this next time you invoke science to justify a position, though.

I don't know whether Trump is going by science or simply going with "if the Democrats say X the opposite must be true". The former is possible and very defensible. The latter would be childish and stooping to the Democrats' level. He hasn't said, as far as I know. Why doesn't someone just ask him?

There's another element to this: why shouldn't you be able to choose whether to attend an event that doesn't require masks? If you aren't comfortable with that then don't go. Similarly, if a school doesn't require masks and parents aren't comfortable with that, they should have the choice not to send their kid there. Of course, people's preferences here are being heavily influenced by the misinformation they're getting from the press...oh but there I go again talking about evidence. Sigh.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:40 am

Sigh here too, Sophie.

I am not one to 100% follow science, evidenced by cholesterol theory and the standard American diet both of which I believe are BS.

I don't know what to think, only that I am frustrated that there is no consistency anywhere, that the kids across the street who go to Catholic school are able to go, while my daughter and her friends have to sit in the basement on Zoom.

You've got Trump holding rallies. You've got Trump saying hey a vaccine maybe by election day. You've got Fauci saying we'll be lucky if we get back to normal by end of 2021. You've got NYT and others now questioning the safety of a vaccine because Trump is pushing it too hard.

I've got meetings at work where 10 of 12 of us are unmaksed, and the 2 that are masked I know at least one is totally pissed off we aren't.

This is just another thing that has completely made people hate each other.

I feel like this, from one of my favorite animated movies.

Image
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by sophie » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:25 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:40 am
Sigh here too, Sophie.

I am not one to 100% follow science, evidence by cholesterol theory and the standard American diet both of which I believe are BS.

I don't know what to think, only that I am frustrated that there is no consistency anywhere,
You're explaining your confusion here very well....and it's understandable!!!

First, I also think the cholesterol theory and the resulting USDA guidelines are BS, but it's not about "not following science." I question it because I am following the science, and not the unfounded belief system that gave rise to it. I can recommend a book if you like.

Something very similar has happened with COVID and mask-wearing. Science tells us that mask wearing in highly constrained hospital settings can prevent bacterial infection in surgical patients, but has limited value in stopping viral transmission. If masks were effective at that, hospitals wouldn't need to build negative pressure rooms. Science also tells us that mask wearing by the general population has very little effect on case trajectories. In the absence of such data, people aiming to create a belief system around mask wearing bring in all kinds of barely-relevant data and resort to unsupported assertions to give their beliefs a veneer of pseudo-science.

Because of the lack of data, there's really nothing to guide how, when, and where people are to wear masks. So yes, governors and mayors writing mask mandates are literally making up rules out of thin air. Naturally, the result is an inconsistent patchwork of rules. No wonder you're confused.

Unfortunately, that leaves you in a position where you have to figure out for yourself what's safe and what isn't. Which leads to the question of what "safe" actually means, given that you take small risks every day in the normal course of life and that's never bothered you before, I assume. I guess you'll have to decide that for yourself. I encourage you to seek out evidence presented by dispassionate, clear-thinking types and to ignore politically motivated propaganda. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to tell the difference.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Xan » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:47 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:25 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:40 am
Sigh here too, Sophie.

I am not one to 100% follow science, evidence by cholesterol theory and the standard American diet both of which I believe are BS.

I don't know what to think, only that I am frustrated that there is no consistency anywhere,
You're explaining your confusion here very well....and it's understandable!!!

First, I also think the cholesterol theory and the resulting USDA guidelines are BS, but it's not about "not following science." I question it because I am following the science, and not the unfounded belief system that gave rise to it. I can recommend a book if you like.
Just to defend Corto here: in popular vernacular, "following science" means going along with the scientific "consensus" as portrayed by the popular media. And that's largely the "science" which we non-doctors have any access to. I'm sure that's what Corto meant.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:54 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:25 am
I encourage you to seek out evidence presented by dispassionate, clear-thinking types and to ignore politically motivated propaganda. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to tell the difference.
I've read Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes, The Great Cholesterol Con by Malcolm Kendrick, and other related books. Right, if the science was followed and not cherry picked, we wouldn't be where we are on diet.

But, just like with almost everything, once a position is taken, it is really hard to back off and change, esp. when egos are involved. And it really seems many doctors and scientists are guilty of the I'm sticking with my position regardless of the evidence position on a variety of subjects.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:59 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:54 am
sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:25 am
I encourage you to seek out evidence presented by dispassionate, clear-thinking types and to ignore politically motivated propaganda. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to tell the difference.
I've read Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes, The Great Cholesterol Con by Malcolm Kendrick, and other related books. Right, if the science was followed and not cherry picked, we wouldn't be where we are on diet.

But, just like with almost everything, once a position is taken, it is really hard to back off and change, esp. when egos are involved. And it really seems many doctors and scientists are guilty of the I'm sticking with my position regardless of the evidence position on a variety of subjects.
The proscribed United States diet is not based upon science but based upon politics, driven by lobbyists.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:03 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:59 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:54 am
sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:25 am
I encourage you to seek out evidence presented by dispassionate, clear-thinking types and to ignore politically motivated propaganda. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to tell the difference.
I've read Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes, The Great Cholesterol Con by Malcolm Kendrick, and other related books. Right, if the science was followed and not cherry picked, we wouldn't be where we are on diet.

But, just like with almost everything, once a position is taken, it is really hard to back off and change, esp. when egos are involved. And it really seems many doctors and scientists are guilty of the I'm sticking with my position regardless of the evidence position on a variety of subjects.
The proscribed United States diet is not based upon science but based upon politics, driven by lobbyists.

Vinny
But it all started with Ancel Keys, a scientist, cherry picking data to fit his "saturated fat is bad" dogma.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Xan » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:04 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:59 am
The proscribed United States diet is not based upon science but based upon politics, driven by lobbyists.

Vinny
But it all started with Ancel Keys, a scientist, cherry picking data to fit his "saturated fat is bad" dogma.
Right, and who's to say the same isn't true about masks?

btw, Vinny, "proscribed" means "forbidden". "prescribed" is what you're looking for, I think.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:13 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:04 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:59 am
The proscribed United States diet is not based upon science but based upon politics, driven by lobbyists.

Vinny
But it all started with Ancel Keys, a scientist, cherry picking data to fit his "saturated fat is bad" dogma.
Right, and who's to say the same isn't true about masks?

btw, Vinny, "proscribed" means "forbidden". "prescribed" is what you're looking for, I think.
You are correct! Thanks for adding to my vocabulary. Goal is to both know all words and use them correctly.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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