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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm
by doodle
Have you read what I wrote? Where did I write that I support Democratic party policies? I'm not engaging in a two party political debate. The title of the thread is "Is trump doing a good job" . The answer to that question is no. He has some good policy ideas....but his implementation is abysmal. He is an intolerable thin skinned blowhard troll. How is it not completely evident how poorly he does as a leader? His method is to pit people against one another in turn corroding any potential for bipartisan cooperation on big issues.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:30 pm
by doodle
Another thing I don't understand, why do Democrats get labeled as whiny sensitive snowflakes when Trump is the veritable definition of that pejorative?

Can't stand Pelosi , but her calling him morbidly obese gets my respect. Good for him to taste a little bit of what he constantly spews.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:49 pm
by Tortoise
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:28 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
You cannot justify one person's overall ineptitude by pointing at another persons shortcomings.
Isn't that what literally every politician has done for all of recorded history?
Are you a politician?
Ah, I misread your statement. Sorry about that. I thought you were referring to Trump blaming other people for his own failures, but you were referring to people saying, "Trump's not that bad because so-and-so is even worse."

I actually think most of us agree with you that Trump isn't a great president on an absolute scale. His policies are sometimes good, and occasionally even some of his "shocking" behavior highlights aspects of our broken systems and sparks discussion that wouldn't otherwise happen. But yes, he can be a loose cannon and has many obvious personality flaws.

Unfortunately, we can't rate our presidents on an absolute scale because we're not allowed to elect whoever we want. Our ratings always have to be relative, because we are given two (maybe three) real choices for president every four years. Demanding more from our presidents doesn't change the flawed political process that so severely limits our choices for president.

Can we change that somehow?

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:22 pm
by doodle
I agree on a policy perspective. He is a bit nationalistic...borderline fascist xenophobic...but I think we have been too permissive with immigration so I think his overreaction might be somewhat justified. The problem is that the issues that Trump wants to tackle are serious and merit attention but his style is so lacking that people recoil in disgust from the way he addresses the issues by going to the opposite extreme. This polarization over issues that could enjoy widespread consensus given the right communicator is bad for the social cohesion in this country. That is an overall negative. On top of that I think thin skinned bullying narcissists , which Trump is the textbook definition of, are obnoxious and make categorically bad leaders.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:25 pm
by doodle
This is what I'd like to see from a leader:


https://youtu.be/ljqra3BcqWM

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 8:33 am
by WiseOne
Doodle, everything you've written is about Trump's public personality. I think we all agree that in this respect he leaves a lot to be desired.

The disconnect is that many of us are using different metrics than you are to judge the quality of Trump's presidency. Personally, I don't rate the public persona as being all that important. This is because the public persona has zero effect on me personally and will have no effect overall once he leaves office. I care more about his legislative/executive accomplishments.

Also I think he has worked harder while in office than any President in recent memory. Remember how George Bush was always cutting switchgrass on his Texas ranch? You always had the feeling he was nothing more than a figurehead, leaving the work of governing to Dick Cheney and the rest of the neocon crew. Obama was more hands on but also took lots of time off (gym visits & runs, trips to Hawaii). How do you think this difference in work ethic figures into personality?

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
by doodle
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 9:37 am
by doodle
Trump's latest tweet regarding protestors at Whitehouse being greeted by

"Would have been greeted with the most vicious dogs, and most ominous weapons, I have ever seen,”

was so reminiscent of Charles Montgomery Burns I would be surprised if he didn't rip it off from an episode of The Simpsons.


https://ibb.co/gzhZFLr


Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 9:45 am
by vnatale
doodle wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
All you say is somewhat related to what I asked here several months ago:

1) Would you want your daughter to marry him?

2) Would you want him to be your boss?

3) If you spent your entire life building a business and your entire net worth was invested in it and now you wanted to step out of the operational duties but still own it would you hire him to be the CEO of your company?

Vinny

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 3:33 pm
by pp4me
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm
Have you read what I wrote? Where did I write that I support Democratic party policies? I'm not engaging in a two party political debate. The title of the thread is "Is trump doing a good job" . The answer to that question is no. He has some good policy ideas....but his implementation is abysmal. He is an intolerable thin skinned blowhard troll. How is it not completely evident how poorly he does as a leader? His method is to pit people against one another in turn corroding any potential for bipartisan cooperation on big issues.
No, I didn't see where you supported any of the specific Democratic party policies I mentioned so I apologize for suggesting that if it's not true.

If your distaste for Donald Trump causes you to end up choosing Biden and company as the lesser of two evils however, then we just have a serious disagreement. This election has been reminding me of the 1972 election in which the Democrats assumed that Nixon was so despised that they could put forth possibly the most far left candidate in history up until that time (McGovern) and people would vote for him. Didn't turn out that way as Nixon won in a landslide only to be de-facto impeached shortly thereafter.

Personally, I think even if Trump was as incompetent as you think he is (I don't), or as big of a narcissistic a**hose as you think he is (I can somewhat agree with that), there is no way I could ever vote for the far left platform the Dems are running on nowadays. I thought maybe Biden was just playing along with the far left to get the nomination and would return closer to the center but that doesn't seem to be the case at all though he may still come to his senses later on and try to hide it.

There were times over the years that I didn't bother to vote because I didn't see a whole lot of difference between the parties but that isn't the case this time around. I actually wish that was true but the differences are major in my estimation.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 3:44 pm
by pp4me
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:30 pm
Another thing I don't understand, why do Democrats get labeled as whiny sensitive snowflakes when Trump is the veritable definition of that pejorative?

Can't stand Pelosi , but her calling him morbidly obese gets my respect. Good for him to taste a little bit of what he constantly spews.
What do you think about Pelosi ripping up the statue of the union address while the whole world was watching?

This all looks childish to me. Are there any adults left?

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 am
by WiseOne
doodle wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
Well I can't really disagree with that assessment - except for the relative importance of demeanor vs. policy. Yes it would be much more ideal if Trump didn't have these personality issues, but unfortunately life being the way it is, the election is going to be about choosing the lesser of two evils. Just as it always is. The policies that have been implemented during the Trump administration are (taken as a whole) much superior to what the Democrats are likely to do if they win the election. That's what you have to balance.

Of course, I also tend to think that the media overplay the results of his demeanor, making it look much worse than it really is. For example, media articles on the current riots are doing their best to pin the blame for this on Trump. They're not citing any facts, just relying on sophistry to leave you with that impression. It's pretty effective too.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:21 pm
by doodle
WiseOne wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 am
doodle wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
Well I can't really disagree with that assessment - except for the relative importance of demeanor vs. policy. Yes it would be much more ideal if Trump didn't have these personality issues, but unfortunately life being the way it is, the election is going to be about choosing the lesser of two evils. Just as it always is. The policies that have been implemented during the Trump administration are (taken as a whole) much superior to what the Democrats are likely to do if they win the election. That's what you have to balance.

Of course, I also tend to think that the media overplay the results of his demeanor, making it look much worse than it really is. For example, media articles on the current riots are doing their best to pin the blame for this on Trump. They're not citing any facts, just relying on sophistry to leave you with that impression. It's pretty effective too.
Yes, the media certainly doesn't make any attempts to cast him in the best light...and they should try to remain more objective. However, he has done an incredibly poor job of maintaining a healthy relationship with them and while both sides are to blame, he is the president and to a degree critique and tough questions come with the position. He almost expects people to automatically fall in line behind him and when they don't he doesn't know how to deal with it. Within his businesses or administration any dissent is simply dealt with by firing the individual....unfortunately for him he can't fire the media.

There are many elements of the Democratic party that are very concerning to me. The trouble with Trump though is that he radicalizes the left even more and drives away moderates like myself and so undermines his policies which on the whole are not that radical but come across as such by his ineptitude at communicating them.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:58 pm
by doodle
I really am in a pickle with regards to voting this election. I see incredible downsides to both candidates. Both sides of the political spectrum have been radicalized to a degree that is frightening. I am really hopeful that if things continue to spiral in this country a third party candidate enters the race. Would any Republicans here consider jumping parties to either a third party or a democratic late entrant of more moderate persuasion...a Mark Cuban type character perhaps?

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 1:24 pm
by I Shrugged
doodle wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:58 pm
I really am in a pickle with regards to voting this election. I see incredible downsides to both candidates. Both sides of the political spectrum have been radicalized to a degree that is frightening. I am really hopeful that if things continue to spiral in this country a third party candidate enters the race. Would any Republicans here consider jumping parties to either a third party or a democratic late entrant of more moderate persuasion...a Mark Cuban type character perhaps?
No to Mark Cuban.
Actually, I live in a state where the electoral votes are pre-ordained. So I can and usually do vote for a third party, just because.

If I was in a battleground state, I'd vote for Trump. I'm about fed up with him. I think he is losing his cool. In his desperation I can see that he thinks in terms of manipulation. Everywhere and always, he is trying to manipulate. But I will be forever grateful to him for smashing the GOP and Democratic parties. I am not sure where the former is headed. It can only improve. The DP seems to be headed off a cliff with their feet on the gas like Thelma and Louise. Good riddance.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 1:53 pm
by doodle
My greatest fear with the Democratic party is that just like the communists, they have a naive idea of human nature. I think they underestimate the challenges that great amounts of diversity pose to maintaining a cohesive nation. I don't think they see the potential dangers that lurk behind trying to only focus on the caring aspects of human nature and ignoring the the tribal insular aspects, in the same way that the communists underestimated the effects that human greed and selfishness would have on their Marxist paradise. But that in some ways is the nature of the two parties, liberals pushing the envelope and focusing on our potential and higher aspirations as a human race, and the conservatives reminding us of our fallable nature.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:43 pm
by I Shrugged
Good points.
I like the description of conservativism as being skeptical of innovations, because most innovations are failures. OTOH a lot of the progress western civilization has made has happened against the resistance of conservatives.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:35 am
by doodle
I Shrugged wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:43 pm
Good points.
I like the description of conservativism as being skeptical of innovations, because most innovations are failures. OTOH a lot of the progress western civilization has made has happened against the resistance of conservatives.
If it weren't for liberals, we would still be ruled by Kings and Queens.

We need both forces. If one uses a car as an analogy then liberals would be like the gas and conservatives would be like the brakes. You can't have just one without the other and hope to get down the road.

In some ways I blame the media for where we are at today. Somewhere along the way reporting turned into hack political punditry. The news has become entirely about crafting stories rather than reporting facts. Ultimately a great deal of blame for the unraveling of our democracy lies at their feet. In addition, the amount of big money involved in our political system and the intense power of corporate lobbying over our politicians is another huge issue. I'm not very optimistic about the next few decades in this country. I think we have a lot of headwinds...but I am pessimistic by nature.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:04 am
by WiseOne
Well put doodle!!!

I would add one thing: We no longer have a liberal party. I remember an analogy my dad described to me once: political views are not a straight line, they're a circle. Traditional liberals vs conservatives should be 180 degrees apart (at 90 and 270 degrees). Centrists, between liberal and conservative, are at the 0 degree mark. When either the liberal or conservative view gets more extreme they head toward the 180 degree mark, i.e. they become indistinguishable. The common theme is the desire for complete control of society & the economy, which is a good description of the current Democratic party. The Republicans are all over the map, but I think that on balance they're mostly straight conservative.

You just have to watch how poitical views are twisted by the media. For example, the idea of a merit-based immigration system is something we need yesterday, and it's how virtually all other First World countries operate. I would actually classify it as a centrist policy, even a liberal one since it dispenses with nation-based quotas. Yet somehow, the media and the Democratic party portray it as far-right racist and fully indicative of Trump's racist and authoritarian nature. If you're not constantly on guard against this sort of manipulation, you might fall prey to it. (And yes note I said "manipulation" - sure Trump is in campaign mode, but do you really think he's the only one trying to spin his political record?)

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:07 am
by Kriegsspiel
doodle wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:35 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:43 pm
Good points.
I like the description of conservativism as being skeptical of innovations, because most innovations are failures. OTOH a lot of the progress western civilization has made has happened against the resistance of conservatives.
If it weren't for liberals, we would still be ruled by Kings and Queens.
Probably so. Thank god for those gun-toting liberal hillbillies.
We need both forces. If one uses a car as an analogy then liberals would be like the gas and conservatives would be like the brakes. You can't have just one without the other and hope to get down the road.
PS had a good notion when he talked about how we work better when the niches of each political leaning are operating effectively. I don't remember where it was, but pretty much lefties and righties tend to sort themselves into different occupations, and it's good for each side when they do them in good faith. The lefty reporter putting out solid information is good for society as a whole just like a righty police officer keeping good order on his beat is good for society... and at the other end, lefty reporters spewing out constant agitprop is bad for society just like a corrupt police officer brutalizing citizens and falsifying evidence is.
In some ways I blame the media for where we are at today. Somewhere along the way reporting turned into hack political punditry. The news has become entirely about crafting stories rather than reporting facts. Ultimately a great deal of blame for the unraveling of our democracy lies at their feet. In addition, the amount of big money involved in our political system and the intense power of corporate lobbying over our politicians is another huge issue.
Yes. And to your second point, even big pools of money being thrown around within journalism seem like a bad thing, as in this case and with the venture capital-funded websites that put out agitprop.

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:15 am
by Libertarian666
WiseOne wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:04 am
Well put doodle!!!

I would add one thing: We no longer have a liberal party. I remember an analogy my dad described to me once: political views are not a straight line, they're a circle.
Nope, they are a diamond: https://www.theadvocates.org/quiz/

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:30 am
by vnatale
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:15 am
WiseOne wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:04 am
Well put doodle!!!

I would add one thing: We no longer have a liberal party. I remember an analogy my dad described to me once: political views are not a straight line, they're a circle.
Nope, they are a diamond: https://www.theadvocates.org/quiz/
I guess I'm in the right forum?

Vinny
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:09 pm
by Tyler
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:07 am
We need both forces. If one uses a car as an analogy then liberals would be like the gas and conservatives would be like the brakes. You can't have just one without the other and hope to get down the road.
PS had a good notion when he talked about how we work better when the niches of each political leaning are operating effectively.
Major content warning, but I think Team America said it best. ;)

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:35 pm
by Libertarian666
vnatale wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:30 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:15 am
WiseOne wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:04 am
Well put doodle!!!

I would add one thing: We no longer have a liberal party. I remember an analogy my dad described to me once: political views are not a straight line, they're a circle.
Nope, they are a diamond: https://www.theadvocates.org/quiz/
I guess I'm in the right forum?

Vinny

Capture.JPG
Apparently so! I'm a bit surprised that you were in that quadrant, but welcome to the club!

Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:08 pm
by Mountaineer
Personal Issues
Score
50
Economic Issues
Score
80
Centrist

Centrist prefer a "middle ground" regarding government control of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on the issue, they sometimes favor government intervention and sometimes support individual freedom of choice. Centrists pride themselves on keeping an open mind, tend to oppose "political extremes," and emphasize what they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.