ochotona wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:46 pm
The metric is *** check to see if hospitals are actually being overrun ***
Do you doubt that they are? I believe WiseOne confirmed that.
Speaking of which...when is the last time any of us have heard from her? Yesterday? Day before? I could look it up but it makes the point that my perception of time lately has gotten extremely warped. And, since I have no routines yesterday for a while I did not know what day it was. Today I thought was Wednesday. I picked up a newspaper from the floor and it said Wednesday. But I'd not gone out to get today's paper. So was it really Thursday today and I'd somehow totally missed Wednesday? But today is an exercise day so it must be Wednesday. The confusion ended when I'd realized that the paper I'd picked up, which I had thought was yesterday's paper, turned out to be LAST Wednesday's paper.
Vinny
You can check her profile under 'members' at the top right of the toolbar to see when her last post was. She's prob just swamped at work.
I realized that when I'd written the above...but I used it as an entre to describe the affects on me from being home day after day which are now blurring with no established routines and no sports going on - either that I participate in or that I watch.
Vinny
And she just posted 45 mins ago in another thread, which I did not see until after I responded to you.
I did see it prior to seeing yours above and responding to you. So far I believe I've seen two items from her today.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Hey guys I'm here....not doing anything particularly constructive just a bunch of meetings and paperwork.
The goal of the lockdown is not to prevent people from getting the virus anymore. We all will eventually. It's to slow down the spread so that the medical system can handle the caseload.
WiseOne wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:49 pm
Hey guys I'm here....not doing anything particularly constructive just a bunch of meetings and paperwork.
The goal of the lockdown is not to prevent people from getting the virus anymore. We all will eventually. It's to slow down the spread so that the medical system can handle the caseload.
Ugh, I hope not. My sister would not survive it and my parents are octogenarians.
WiseOne wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:49 pm
Hey guys I'm here....not doing anything particularly constructive just a bunch of meetings and paperwork.
The goal of the lockdown is not to prevent people from getting the virus anymore. We all will eventually. It's to slow down the spread so that the medical system can handle the caseload.
Is this analogous to anything else (bad) that we all mutually experience?
When I was growing up the big 3 were measles, mumps, and chicken pox.
I don't think I got the first but did get the latter two.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
vnatale wrote: ↑Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:39 pm
The three hosts could not restrain themselves from outbursts of laughter as it was being played.
Like how Fauci couldn't contain his laughter and had to cover his face after Trump cracked the joke about the "Deep State Department" during the recent press briefing?
vnatale wrote: ↑Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:39 pm
The three hosts could not restrain themselves from outbursts of laughter as it was being played.
Like how Fauci couldn't contain his laughter and had to cover his face after Trump cracked the joke about the "Deep State Department" during the recent press briefing?
Is this the guy who tells us to not touch our faces?
vnatale wrote: ↑Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:39 pm
The three hosts could not restrain themselves from outbursts of laughter as it was being played.
Like how Fauci couldn't contain his laughter and had to cover his face after Trump cracked the joke about the "Deep State Department" during the recent press briefing?
Who serves at the pleasure of the same president who exhorts us to maintain social distancing.
VInny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Ahh, it's refreshing to have some normal Trumpiness for once. Some things don't change. Oh, yeah, sure, give us 48 hours and we'll have a CAR plant retooled to make ventilators. Easy peasy.
We got a lot of engineers here, right? Why even give the impression this is doable in a quick fashion? Even if you took an existing design, you still have to source and create parts, PCBs, make tooling, test fixtures, etc, etc.
Last edited by Cortopassi on Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:53 am
Ahh, it's refreshing to have some normal Trumpiness for once. Some things don't change. Oh, yeah, sure, give us 48 hours and we'll have a CAR plant retooled to make ventilators. Easy peasy.
Yet to his supporters this is all just.....
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Only tangentially about Trump: John Kerry agreeing with him. There *is* a tear in the fabric of the universe.
Kerry tweeted:
Breaking news: Congressman Massie has tested positive for being an asshole. He must be quarantined to prevent the spread of his massive stupidity. He's given new meaning to the term #Masshole. (Finally, something the president and I can agree on!)
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
Generally those who operate out of their deep belief in their instincts do NOT operate out of logic!
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
Perhaps the processes for obtaining more tests and treatments are going much more smoothly but ventilators need the attention right now.
Perhaps he was told one thing by these companies and now he’s being told another and he’s hacked off about it.
Perhaps, like much of the world, he recognizes that public shaming via social media can be somewhat effective. How and where it’s effective may not always be obvious to us.
Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:36 pm
Perhaps the processes for obtaining more tests and treatments are going much more smoothly but ventilators need the attention right now.
Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
All of those things are in the works right now.
If ramping up production of treatments (like hydroxychloroquine) are underway and are going smoothly, have we been getting regular updates about it from the government? My understanding is that thus far, we haven’t.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:53 am
We got a lot of engineers here, right? Why even give the impression this is doable in a quick fashion? Even if you took an existing design, you still have to source and create parts, PCBs, make tooling, test fixtures, etc, etc.
Engineer here.
The car manufacturers are not necessarily talking about managing the full ventilator production line in-house. Here's a more detailed quote that gives a better idea of what they can realistically offer on short notice:
GM said Friday that it's collaborating with Ventec Life Systems to help the company increase output of its respiratory care products, including by providing logistics, purchasing and manufacturing resources. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... 895190001/
Complex products can only be manufactured as fast as the slowest component in the line. It's all about supply chain, and that's what car manufacturers are really good at. So companies like GM can help the ventilator suppliers massively increase their own throughput.
For example, the car manufacturers have entire factories full of CNC machines that can be quickly reprogrammed literally overnight to machine any other metal part that a ventilator manufacturer needs. And they also have the supply chain technology in place to efficiently distribute those parts all around the country to where it's needed most in real time.
BTW, note that Trump is calling them out for slow-walking their own promises while driving up the price.
Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.
Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.
Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.
Vinny
Only if you are in direct command with the power of authority to mete out severe negative consequences. I don't really think Trump is in that position. And if we get to where he does, we have far worse things to worry about than making some company make a product.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.
Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.
Meanwhile, he's now sparring on Twitter with Representative Thomas Massie, one of the few representatives who actually cares about limited government, the US Constitution, and accountability.
flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:36 pm
Perhaps the processes for obtaining more tests and treatments are going much more smoothly but ventilators need the attention right now.
Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
All of those things are in the works right now.
If ramping up production of treatments (like hydroxychloroquine) are underway and are going smoothly, have we been getting regular updates about it from the government? My understanding is that thus far, we haven’t.
Seems like nothing has been spoon-fed to us, but there are probably other ways to find out for anyone that wants to look into it.
Tests and treatments can be going "more smoothly" than ventilators without actually going "smoothly". It's all relative.
One thing Trump seems to be doing really well during this pandemic is recognizing the importance of hope and psychology as part of our overall strategy. He seems to be doing his best to give at least a glimmer of hope to the American people regarding the return to work and daily life.
This isn't just a medical and economic crisis. It's a social crisis as well, because we are human beings and we are scared of the unknown. The medical experts are focused on medicine, not psychology, so they want to take the most conservative medical approach of keeping the economy and society in a medically-induced coma for months -- without speculating as to when people might be able to start returning to work.
By contrast, Trump seems to recognize that a glimmer of hope can help ease the panic slightly and give people a small measure of comfort in the midst of chaos. As Scott Adams has pointed out on his podcast, people -- and markets, and managers, etc. -- almost universally prefer a wildly speculative guess to no guess at all. Any schedule, even one that's likely wrong and will need to be heavily revised, is preferable to no schedule at all.
So yes, Trump is obligated to listen to his medical experts' advice and take it into serious consideration, but he's not obligated to follow their advice. Because ultimately, Trump is making decisions that involve more than just medicine and health. He's performing cost/benefit analyses and making higher-level leadership decisions that also impact the economy and broader human society.
Yes, Trump has occasionally made blunders and mistakes, and continues to do so. But his expertise in persuasion is helping to calm the minds of the American people by giving them something to look forward to this coming Easter -- whether it's good news or just revised estimates and strategies.
