Is Trump doing a good job?

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doodle
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:00 pm

And James Mad Dog Mattis, renowned for being incredibly intense about taking battle to enemy basically called Trump out as a traitor to the nation. Trump trying to play it off as if he was fired....so pathetic.

"I believe we must be resolute and unambiguous in our approach to those countries whose strategic interests are increasingly in tension with ours. It is clear that China and Russia, for example, want to shape a world consistent with their authoritarian model —gaining veto authority over other nations' economic, diplomatic, and security decisions — to promote their own interests at the expense of their neighbors, America and our allies. That is why we must use all the tools of American power to provide for the common defense.
My views on treating allies with respect and also being clear-eyed about both malign actors and strategic competitors are strongly held and informed by over four decades of immersion in these issues. We must do everything possible to advance an international order that is most conducive to our security, prosperity and values, and we are strengthened in this effort by the solidarity of our alliances.
Because you have the right to have a Secretary of Defense whose views are better aligned with yours on these and other subjects, I believe it is right for me to step down from my position."
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:03 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:56 pm
Did you ever stop to consider that maybe your idea of the kind of leadership we need right now is just plain wrong? You would probably want some smooth talking guy who would get up and try to coddle all the losers that want to burn down the country. Maybe what we need is a straight talker who just tells it like it is and doesn't coddle anybody. Sure we have some problems with racism here and there, but if an unbiased person listed the top 50 problems in the country, I bet racism wouldn't even be in the top 10, and yet the mass media is determined that the country should burn because America is supposedly such a racist country. Maybe what we need is a leader who is not willing to bow down to such lies.

But if you think your idea of leadership is so much better than Trump's, you are certainly welcome to run for president in November.
What leadership? You mean the whiny Trump tantrum shit show that has been going on for the last four years? Leaders accept responsibility, show empathy, compassion and understanding, attempt to unite people, show bravery and level headedness under fire. Trump posseses none of these attributes.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:19 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:42 pm
Doodle,

The guy has led a business empire for decades. Sure he started from a rich dad, but there have been lots of sons who started with $30M and ended up broke. If he was a terrible leader, he wouldn't be worth whatever he's worth today.

I'd say the religious fanatics are those who believe anything that comes from the mass media today. They have an agenda. If you want to believe what they say, be my guest, but you should know that they don't have your best interests at heart.
Does this get categorized as "Fake News"?

Trump Had Losses of $1.17 Billion Over a Decade, NYT Reports

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... yt-reports

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:25 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:03 pm
What leadership? You mean the whiny Trump tantrum shit show that has been going on for the last four years? Leaders accept responsibility, show empathy, compassion and understanding, attempt to unite people, show bravery and level headedness under fire. Trump posseses none of these attributes.
That’s a good list of leadership qualities, but it’s not complete. Good leaders also protect their people.

Trump may not be a good leader in any of the ways you listed, but he has done his best to protect the American people from media lies, from economic exploitation by China, from an invasion of illegal immigration, etc.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:33 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:25 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:03 pm
What leadership? You mean the whiny Trump tantrum shit show that has been going on for the last four years? Leaders accept responsibility, show empathy, compassion and understanding, attempt to unite people, show bravery and level headedness under fire. Trump posseses none of these attributes.
That’s a good list of leadership qualities, but it’s not complete. Good leaders also protect their people.

Trump may not be a good leader in any of the ways you listed, but he has done his best to protect the American people from media lies, from economic exploitation by China, from an invasion of illegal immigration, etc.
Isn't that why Mattis resigned though? He felt Trump wasn't protecting the American people because he was incapable of working constructively with others...namely ALL of our allies.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:35 pm

Black people should be praising Trump's name every night for trying to stem the tide of illegal immigration that has taken away a lot of jobs from actual Americans in recent decades.

You won't hear that on the network news. All you'll hear is that America deserves to burn because some stupid cop kneeled on some big guy's neck, and it's all Trump's fault because he wasn't there to stop it, and if he had been there he would have been urging the stupid cop to kneel harder.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:38 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:33 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:25 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:03 pm
What leadership? You mean the whiny Trump tantrum shit show that has been going on for the last four years? Leaders accept responsibility, show empathy, compassion and understanding, attempt to unite people, show bravery and level headedness under fire. Trump posseses none of these attributes.
That’s a good list of leadership qualities, but it’s not complete. Good leaders also protect their people.

Trump may not be a good leader in any of the ways you listed, but he has done his best to protect the American people from media lies, from economic exploitation by China, from an invasion of illegal immigration, etc.
Isn't that why Mattis resigned though? He felt Trump wasn't protecting the American people because he was incapable of working constructively with others...namely ALL of our allies.
You have heard of something called the military-industrial complex that's been sucking bazillions of dollars off the American people for decades? Any guy who's near the head of that beast may not be nearly so trustworthy as you would hope. All those guys want is for America to keep pouring money into military spending. I'm sure the allies are happy for that to happen also. Maybe Trump said he wasn't interested and Mattis knew he could get a great consulting gig just by turning on Trump.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Stuper,

Trumps policies are not necessarily bad. I have said this on many occasions. But he is utterly incapable of implementing them because he is such a horrible leader. These are serious issues that merit attention but Trump undermines them by being so incompetent at leading. He is a BAD LEADER in every way. His ideas on the other hand not so bad....but again, this is a democracy not a dictatorship. Change requires leadership of which Trump has none! .

Also, how does one account for Trump now claiming he fired Mattis after it is so clear that he resigned? Maybe because Trump is incapable of telling the truth.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:45 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:19 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:42 pm
Doodle,

The guy has led a business empire for decades. Sure he started from a rich dad, but there have been lots of sons who started with $30M and ended up broke. If he was a terrible leader, he wouldn't be worth whatever he's worth today.

I'd say the religious fanatics are those who believe anything that comes from the mass media today. They have an agenda. If you want to believe what they say, be my guest, but you should know that they don't have your best interests at heart.
Does this get categorized as "Fake News"?

Trump Had Losses of $1.17 Billion Over a Decade, NYT Reports

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... yt-reports

Vinny
I can't read the article without buying a subscription. Does it say how much money he made during the decade? Anything printed in the NYT has a high presumption of being fake news in my experience. It's mainly just propaganda written from a leftist slant. I'll read it just to find out what the left thinks that I'm supposed to believe about something -- that's kind of interesting in itself. And what's this deal of one news outlet quoting another news outlet? Does that make it more legitimate? Not in my book.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:46 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:43 pm
Stuper,

Trumps policies are not necessarily bad. I have said this on many occasions. But he is utterly incapable of implementing them because he is such a horrible leader. These are serious issues that merit attention but Trump undermines them by being so incompetent at leading. He is a BAD LEADER in every way. His ideas on the other hand not so bad....but again, this is a democracy not a dictatorship. Change requires leadership of which Trump has none! .

Also, how does one account for Trump now claiming he fired Mattis after it is so clear that he resigned? Maybe because Trump is incapable of telling the truth.
Okay, so we should vote for a leftist who can implement terrible policies?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:10 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:46 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:43 pm
Stuper,

Trumps policies are not necessarily bad. I have said this on many occasions. But he is utterly incapable of implementing them because he is such a horrible leader. These are serious issues that merit attention but Trump undermines them by being so incompetent at leading. He is a BAD LEADER in every way. His ideas on the other hand not so bad....but again, this is a democracy not a dictatorship. Change requires leadership of which Trump has none! .

Also, how does one account for Trump now claiming he fired Mattis after it is so clear that he resigned? Maybe because Trump is incapable of telling the truth.
Okay, so we should vote for a leftist who can implement terrible policies?
Maybe if the political right didn't give him so much support you'd be able to have a candidate stand in who actually had some leadership ability. By not calling him out for his bullshit you are in essence enabling his crappy leadership to continue. In the meantime, he has riled up the left to a degree that now I'm even more terrified if the Republicans lose power...which is not improbable at this point. Overall, he has polarized and radicalized this country to a degree that is unhealthy. Good for realty TV ratings...not so much for a democracy.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:03 pm

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree. I put much more of the blame for polarizing the country on the biased media reporting.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by shekels » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:04 am

doodle wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:10 pm


Maybe if the political right didn't give him so much support you'd be able to have a candidate stand in who actually had some leadership ability. By not calling him out for his bullshit you are in essence enabling his crappy leadership to continue. In the meantime, he has riled up the left to a degree that now I'm even more terrified if the Republicans lose power...which is not improbable at this point. Overall, he has polarized and radicalized this country to a degree that is unhealthy. Good for realty TV ratings...not so much for a democracy.
Just a few observations I have with your statement.
You may not agree with Trump But could a "crappy Leader" have made it to become President?
IMHO Trump was the Anti run of the mill Republican President, Trump WAS the outsider that beat all the others.
The people on the "political right" wanted a different type of Leader .
A leader that was not a Shill for the people that are screwing over the Republican party for many years. and got one..
I said Leader. I did not say people agreed he had a Great personality.
He is only Polarized/Radicalized to Trump haters and those who watch to much Anti Trump Media. which IS good for Rating/Money/Agenda
Also I will make it a Point to ask if you are a U.S. American, because I was taught in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA we are a Republic...
The U.S. is not Collectivism or a democracy no matter how much the U.S. has fallen victim to corruption and corrupt Leaders
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:15 am

Doodle, you have to keep in mind that your image of Trump's leadership comes through an extremely biased media lens. Once you are on the alert for this, you'll see all kinds of dirty tricks, e.g. taking innocuous statements and spinning them in an obviously biased article. My favorite is the one where a highly negatively-charged headline is paired with a photo of Trump carefully chosen to make him look awful, and then contradicted in the article itself - usually near the end since they know most people don't read that far. Or where a similarly nasty photo of Trump is juxtaposed with an article on a negative unrelated topic, to give the impression that Trump was somehow to blame without ever actually stating it. Then there's the obvious factual misstatements like the one about the tear gas at the D.C. church, or how it's a "slam dunk" that the Hunter Biden/Burisma saga was entirely innocuous.

Just try reading news articles with an eye toward searching for this type of propaganda. You'll be amazed at what you find. This is not to say that Trump doesn't provide plenty of material on his own, but I tend to think of him as your annoying old uncle who manages to drive everyone nuts at family gatherings, but whose basic reptilian instincts are essentially correct. And, those instincts are pretty consistently to the benefit of John (or Jane) Q. Public, which is the reason for the organized effort to discredit him. People benefiting from the prior regime don't want to give up their power, pure and simple.

Also, given the extent of opposition against him, it's amazing to me how much he has, in fact, accomplished. Compared to what Bill Clinton went through with that incessant Ken Starr investigation which crippled his second term, what he's suffered is far worse. You won't find any news articles commenting on this, but the man has clearly worked harder than either of the prior two presidents. That's a work ethic that doesn't fit with the media narrative - which should give you yet another indication of that narrative's accuracy.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:46 am

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:15 am
Doodle, you have to keep in mind that your image of Trump's leadership comes through an extremely biased media lens. Once you are on the alert for this, you'll see all kinds of dirty tricks, e.g. taking innocuous statements and spinning them in an obviously biased article. My favorite is the one where a highly negatively-charged headline is paired with a photo of Trump carefully chosen to make him look awful, and then contradicted in the article itself - usually near the end since they know most people don't read that far. Or where a similarly nasty photo of Trump is juxtaposed with an article on a negative unrelated topic, to give the impression that Trump was somehow to blame without ever actually stating it. Then there's the obvious factual misstatements like the one about the tear gas at the D.C. church, or how it's a "slam dunk" that the Hunter Biden/Burisma saga was entirely innocuous.

My impression of Trump comes almost entirely through his own words...namely his asinine tweets and whatever lies he spews out during interviews. I also do not like the way that Trump thumbs his nose at the law. He has been involved in legal controversies his entire career...this is not something the media has hoisted on him since becoming president.

Biden is a whole different subject and I hate when he is brought into the discussion. He is a regular scumbag himself...and I'm sure Burisma involved corruption on some level. And if he is elected I will criticize him as well if he deserves it.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:36 am

You know, it would be kind of fun to use the Wayback Machine to pick a random month during Trump's presidency and do an exhaustive review of the highly-read mainstream media articles, classifying them according to the type of propaganda technique used and providing a score for each news outlet.

I would predict that the number of unbiased articles will prove to be very small. It would be even more fun to compare to back issues of Pravda during the Soviet era, which is probably the most famous example of propaganda disguised as a news outlet. I bet there won't be a whole lot of difference, except that Pravda's brand of propaganda will be much less sophisticated.

This reminds me of Robert Heinlein novels & short stories that depict the use of propaganda in totalitarian regimes. In his imaginary universe, news is manipulated by professional "psychometricians" who carefully pitch stories by selecting words ranked according to the type and intensity of emotional response they evoke, and also selecting which facts to report to evoke an impression while not actually stating false information. I don't think journalism has quite gotten to that point, but it's getting uncomfortably close.

I've been enjoying the American Thinker site recently: https://www.americanthinker.com/

It's equally biased to the mainstream news and there are a lot of 'high emotional index' words, but in the opposite direction. This is actually helpful for learning to spot the use of standard propaganda techniques in the mainstream media, even if you disagree with the articles themselves.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:02 am

I agree, something has to be done regarding the media...not sure what....some type of independent fact checking institute that runs a ticker symbol like scroll bar during programming continuously labeling the veracity of statements being made? Lack of accurate information is a huge issue.

But again, Trump doesn't need the media to make him look bad. His Twitter feed is so insane it's hard to know at any given moment if those are his own words or if he has been hacked.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:50 am

And you link nypost...an obviously right biased paper as evidence. You fall prey to it just as much as left does.
Last edited by doodle on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:50 am

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:02 am
I agree, something has to be done regarding the media...not sure what....some type of independent fact checking institute that runs a ticker symbol like scroll bar during programming continuously labeling the veracity of statements being made? Lack of accurate information is a huge issue.

But again, Trump doesn't need the media to make him look bad. His Twitter feed is so insane it's hard to know at any given moment if those are his own words or if he has been hacked.
Would you rather have a politician that sounds great with terrible policies, or one that sounds terrible with great policies? That's the kind of choice we have to make. You think his Twitter feed is insane, but he's the one who got himself elected, not you. Maybe he understands better than you how to mobilize the type of person he needs to vote for him. I've always said that actions matter more than words. Most people seem to get that idea when the words are great and the actions are bad. Apparently a lot of people can't understand that it should work the same way too when the words are bad but the actions are great. We'd all love it I'm sure if we could have somebody whose words were great and actions were great, but that's not the choice we had.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:15 am

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:50 am
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:02 am
I agree, something has to be done regarding the media...not sure what....some type of independent fact checking institute that runs a ticker symbol like scroll bar during programming continuously labeling the veracity of statements being made? Lack of accurate information is a huge issue.

But again, Trump doesn't need the media to make him look bad. His Twitter feed is so insane it's hard to know at any given moment if those are his own words or if he has been hacked.
Would you rather have a politician that sounds great with terrible policies, or one that sounds terrible with great policies? That's the kind of choice we have to make. You think his Twitter feed is insane, but he's the one who got himself elected, not you. Maybe he understands better than you how to mobilize the type of person he needs to vote for him. I've always said that actions matter more than words. Most people seem to get that idea when the words are great and the actions are bad. Apparently a lot of people can't understand that it should work the same way too when the words are bad but the actions are great. We'd all love it I'm sure if we could have somebody whose words were great and actions were great, but that's not the choice we had.
Stuper, I agree actions speak louder than words. But this is politics and words matter...and unless we are going to resort to bashing one another over the head then words are all we have to create consensus. I don't think many of his policies are that radical, but his words and demeanor are so abrasive that it undermines his ability to create consensus. Take immigration for example, I don't think his policies are that radical, but the way he went about trying to implement them made things much worse. Calling immigrants rapists and murderers and shrieking about how Mexico was going to pay for Wall all contributed to taking a common sense issue and making it hyper partisan. That was not necessary and in fact was detrminetal to coming up with a common sense immigration plan that I think most Americans would stand behind Its Bad leadership.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:31 am

Another thing that is completely unacceptable is the way Trump bullies and mocks people by drawing attention to things like height, or weight, or mental capacity. That alone is so unnaccptable that it should disqualify him from ever expecting to being treated with respect. No one respects a bully. Again, words matter. Would you respect a teacher or boss or co-worker who is a hard worker but constantly demeans his students or the people around him? Then why would you hold the president to a lower standard?
Last edited by doodle on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:47 am

No, I don't post under an alter-ego named doodle. :D Glad there are people who feel similarly.

Many of you are able to see past his personal failings and to his policies, which as I've mentioned I generally am ok with. But I can't see past that.

I don't like my other choice, though. I truly hope the dems figure out how to replace Biden in the next couple months. Leave him in the basement. We should not be electing 78 year old anyones, dems or repubs.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:29 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:31 am
Another thing that is completely unacceptable is the way Trump bullies and mocks people by drawing attention to things like height, or weight, or mental capacity. That alone is so unnaccptable that it should disqualify him from ever expecting to being treated with respect. No one respects a bully. Again, words matter. Would you respect a teacher or boss or co-worker who is a hard worker but constantly demeans his students or the people around him? Then why would you hold the president to a lower standard?
I must admit I haven't paid much attention to this stuff, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that a lot of this has been mis-characterized by the press. They said he was making fun of a disabled guy who had spoken badly of him. I'm pretty sure he replied strongly to the disabled guy, but didn't actually mock his disability. I could be wrong. Trump doesn't care a bit whether I respect him or not. I actually don't respect him as a person, because I don't know him at all. I do like some of his policies much better than the alternatives offered by leftists.

If people are so sensitive that they can't deal with their actual height, weight, or disabilities, then they should stay out of the public eye.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:44 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:29 pm
...
I'm pretty sure he replied strongly to the disabled guy, but didn't actually mock his disability. I could be wrong.
...
What, this?
Image
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:03 pm

Tell me when you find a perfect person to be president. Until then, I'll be happier with somebody who's willing to fight for what he believes in versus somebody who just lays down anytime a snowflake complains because you didn't use their preferred pronouns.
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