Is Trump doing a good job?

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stuper1
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Fri May 29, 2020 3:08 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 2:56 pm
How does small government jibe with continued expansion of federal budget?
So I should have voted for Clinton?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 3:16 pm

Well, the last four years has seen continued trillion dollars deficits...on top of expansionary business cycle. That and the ultra low rates are driving a lot of misallocation of capital...(I think Krieg might have posted the doordash article regarding that).

Trump deserves a lot of criticism. This isn't a Democrat vs Republican debate...this is a shitty leadership needs to be called out debate. Trump is an awful president...I don't care what your political persuasion is. From a policy standpoint some of his ideas aren't bad, it's the execution that's abysmal. You could write the greatest music in the world but if you can't play an instrument you shouldn't be on stage.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri May 29, 2020 3:25 pm

How would you say Trump is responsible for the budget deficit?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 3:25 pm

Is it not possible to objectively qualify characteristics of a shitty leader?

Would whining, scapegoating, being thin skinned, little self control or self awareness, narcissistic, penchant for exaggeration and lying, inflated sense of self, lacking compassion, and short tempered be characteristics of an effective leader?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 3:27 pm

Trump tax plan coupled with signing spending bills.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Fri May 29, 2020 3:30 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:16 pm
You could write the greatest music in the world but if you can't play an instrument you shouldn't be on stage.
Trump does toot his own horn pretty well.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:30 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:16 pm
You could write the greatest music in the world but if you can't play an instrument you shouldn't be on stage.
Trump does toot his own horn pretty well.
Kazoo I'd say...
Except when things go wrong, in which case it's everyone else's fault.

Again, I'm no Democrat. There is so much about the Democratic party I cannot stand. And I do think Bill Clinton was a rapist and Hillary was aware and complicit perhaps. I think they are shady people. But that doesn't mean that Trump is ok. You cannot justify one person's overall ineptitude by pointing at another persons shortcomings. We are talking about the president here...this shouldn't be a race to the bottom. Whatever you think bout Clinton is irrelevant. Trump is a crappy president...vote for him if you want because you have no other choice, but he should be called out daily for how crappy a leader he is. Suffering in silence is what people did in communist countries....
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
You cannot justify one person's overall ineptitude by pointing at another persons shortcomings.
Isn't that what literally every politician has done for all of recorded history?
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
[Trump] should be called out daily for how crappy a leader he is.
He may not be a great leader, but he's definitely succeeded in shaking up parts of the system. That's exactly what a lot of Americans wanted after decades of predictably being forced to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich in every party line-toeing presidential election.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Smith1776 » Fri May 29, 2020 4:14 pm

I remember when Trump was campaigning he said that he would tackle the debt with unequivocal action. He said that if we allowed the debt to hit $22 trillion "we're going to be like Greece."

*Looks at U.S. debt*

:P
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 4:28 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
You cannot justify one person's overall ineptitude by pointing at another persons shortcomings.
Isn't that what literally every politician has done for all of recorded history?

Are you a politician?
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
[Trump] should be called out daily for how crappy a leader he is.
He may not be a great leader, but he's definitely succeeded in shaking up parts of the system. That's exactly what a lot of Americans wanted after decades of predictably being forced to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich in every party line-toeing presidential election.
Like attempting to dismantle the system of checks and balances? Like broadening the system of executive priveledge?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by pp4me » Fri May 29, 2020 4:58 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:28 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
You cannot justify one person's overall ineptitude by pointing at another persons shortcomings.
Isn't that what literally every politician has done for all of recorded history?

Are you a politician?
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
[Trump] should be called out daily for how crappy a leader he is.
He may not be a great leader, but he's definitely succeeded in shaking up parts of the system. That's exactly what a lot of Americans wanted after decades of predictably being forced to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich in every party line-toeing presidential election.
Like attempting to dismantle the system of checks and balances? Like broadening the system of executive priveledge?
You should probably be more specific than "dismantling the system of checks and balances" and "broadening the system of executive privilege" if you are trying to warn us about what a second term for Trump would be like as opposed to Biden because those are pretty meaningless and vague statements, just like calling Trump a "racist", "mysogonist", "homophobe" etc. etc.

Your fellow liberals and democrats (just assuming that refers to you though you can correct me if I'm wrong), do provide specifics, much to their credit, which I really do appreciate. Reparations for slavery, open borders, no enforcement of immigration laws, shutdown ICE, shut down the oil pipeline permanently, shut down all coal mining and fracking, provide health care for illegal immigrants, a possible return to forced busing for integration (assuming Kamala Harris is the VP choice). I could go on and on and on but you probably get the point.

So what are the specific things you think Trump will do in a second administration that should cause us to vote against him as opposed to voting for Joe Biden and company? If you think all of those things I listed above are good ideas that you support, please go ahead and say so.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm

Have you read what I wrote? Where did I write that I support Democratic party policies? I'm not engaging in a two party political debate. The title of the thread is "Is trump doing a good job" . The answer to that question is no. He has some good policy ideas....but his implementation is abysmal. He is an intolerable thin skinned blowhard troll. How is it not completely evident how poorly he does as a leader? His method is to pit people against one another in turn corroding any potential for bipartisan cooperation on big issues.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 5:30 pm

Another thing I don't understand, why do Democrats get labeled as whiny sensitive snowflakes when Trump is the veritable definition of that pejorative?

Can't stand Pelosi , but her calling him morbidly obese gets my respect. Good for him to taste a little bit of what he constantly spews.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Fri May 29, 2020 5:49 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:28 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 4:09 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 pm
You cannot justify one person's overall ineptitude by pointing at another persons shortcomings.
Isn't that what literally every politician has done for all of recorded history?
Are you a politician?
Ah, I misread your statement. Sorry about that. I thought you were referring to Trump blaming other people for his own failures, but you were referring to people saying, "Trump's not that bad because so-and-so is even worse."

I actually think most of us agree with you that Trump isn't a great president on an absolute scale. His policies are sometimes good, and occasionally even some of his "shocking" behavior highlights aspects of our broken systems and sparks discussion that wouldn't otherwise happen. But yes, he can be a loose cannon and has many obvious personality flaws.

Unfortunately, we can't rate our presidents on an absolute scale because we're not allowed to elect whoever we want. Our ratings always have to be relative, because we are given two (maybe three) real choices for president every four years. Demanding more from our presidents doesn't change the flawed political process that so severely limits our choices for president.

Can we change that somehow?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 6:22 pm

I agree on a policy perspective. He is a bit nationalistic...borderline fascist xenophobic...but I think we have been too permissive with immigration so I think his overreaction might be somewhat justified. The problem is that the issues that Trump wants to tackle are serious and merit attention but his style is so lacking that people recoil in disgust from the way he addresses the issues by going to the opposite extreme. This polarization over issues that could enjoy widespread consensus given the right communicator is bad for the social cohesion in this country. That is an overall negative. On top of that I think thin skinned bullying narcissists , which Trump is the textbook definition of, are obnoxious and make categorically bad leaders.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Fri May 29, 2020 6:25 pm

This is what I'd like to see from a leader:


https://youtu.be/ljqra3BcqWM
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Sat May 30, 2020 8:33 am

Doodle, everything you've written is about Trump's public personality. I think we all agree that in this respect he leaves a lot to be desired.

The disconnect is that many of us are using different metrics than you are to judge the quality of Trump's presidency. Personally, I don't rate the public persona as being all that important. This is because the public persona has zero effect on me personally and will have no effect overall once he leaves office. I care more about his legislative/executive accomplishments.

Also I think he has worked harder while in office than any President in recent memory. Remember how George Bush was always cutting switchgrass on his Texas ranch? You always had the feeling he was nothing more than a figurehead, leaving the work of governing to Dick Cheney and the rest of the neocon crew. Obama was more hands on but also took lots of time off (gym visits & runs, trips to Hawaii). How do you think this difference in work ethic figures into personality?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am

I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Sat May 30, 2020 9:37 am

Trump's latest tweet regarding protestors at Whitehouse being greeted by

"Would have been greeted with the most vicious dogs, and most ominous weapons, I have ever seen,”

was so reminiscent of Charles Montgomery Burns I would be surprised if he didn't rip it off from an episode of The Simpsons.


https://ibb.co/gzhZFLr

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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Sat May 30, 2020 9:45 am

doodle wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
All you say is somewhat related to what I asked here several months ago:

1) Would you want your daughter to marry him?

2) Would you want him to be your boss?

3) If you spent your entire life building a business and your entire net worth was invested in it and now you wanted to step out of the operational duties but still own it would you hire him to be the CEO of your company?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by pp4me » Sat May 30, 2020 3:33 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm
Have you read what I wrote? Where did I write that I support Democratic party policies? I'm not engaging in a two party political debate. The title of the thread is "Is trump doing a good job" . The answer to that question is no. He has some good policy ideas....but his implementation is abysmal. He is an intolerable thin skinned blowhard troll. How is it not completely evident how poorly he does as a leader? His method is to pit people against one another in turn corroding any potential for bipartisan cooperation on big issues.
No, I didn't see where you supported any of the specific Democratic party policies I mentioned so I apologize for suggesting that if it's not true.

If your distaste for Donald Trump causes you to end up choosing Biden and company as the lesser of two evils however, then we just have a serious disagreement. This election has been reminding me of the 1972 election in which the Democrats assumed that Nixon was so despised that they could put forth possibly the most far left candidate in history up until that time (McGovern) and people would vote for him. Didn't turn out that way as Nixon won in a landslide only to be de-facto impeached shortly thereafter.

Personally, I think even if Trump was as incompetent as you think he is (I don't), or as big of a narcissistic a**hose as you think he is (I can somewhat agree with that), there is no way I could ever vote for the far left platform the Dems are running on nowadays. I thought maybe Biden was just playing along with the far left to get the nomination and would return closer to the center but that doesn't seem to be the case at all though he may still come to his senses later on and try to hide it.

There were times over the years that I didn't bother to vote because I didn't see a whole lot of difference between the parties but that isn't the case this time around. I actually wish that was true but the differences are major in my estimation.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by pp4me » Sat May 30, 2020 3:44 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:30 pm
Another thing I don't understand, why do Democrats get labeled as whiny sensitive snowflakes when Trump is the veritable definition of that pejorative?

Can't stand Pelosi , but her calling him morbidly obese gets my respect. Good for him to taste a little bit of what he constantly spews.
What do you think about Pelosi ripping up the statue of the union address while the whole world was watching?

This all looks childish to me. Are there any adults left?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 am

doodle wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
Well I can't really disagree with that assessment - except for the relative importance of demeanor vs. policy. Yes it would be much more ideal if Trump didn't have these personality issues, but unfortunately life being the way it is, the election is going to be about choosing the lesser of two evils. Just as it always is. The policies that have been implemented during the Trump administration are (taken as a whole) much superior to what the Democrats are likely to do if they win the election. That's what you have to balance.

Of course, I also tend to think that the media overplay the results of his demeanor, making it look much worse than it really is. For example, media articles on the current riots are doing their best to pin the blame for this on Trump. They're not citing any facts, just relying on sophistry to leave you with that impression. It's pretty effective too.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Sun May 31, 2020 12:21 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 am
doodle wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am
I disagree WiseOne, I think his demeanor is incredibly important. The tone he sets for our country is divisive and corrosive. That is not an atmosphere that is healthy and it doesn't create a situation in which cooperation and progress can be made to solve big issues. The personal qualities he posseses make him a categorically bad leader because he is uninspiring and I would go as far as to say downright revolting as a human being. I wouldn't want a man like that to lead me in any way. I wouldn't want to work for him, I wouldn't want to go into battle with him, I wouldn't even want to have dinner with him. People who are inspired by great leadership are capable of doing incredible things. Trump doesn't inspire, he fuels hate and controversy and then attempts to harness those forces to push his agenda. That is not good leadership and it is not healthy for our republic.
Well I can't really disagree with that assessment - except for the relative importance of demeanor vs. policy. Yes it would be much more ideal if Trump didn't have these personality issues, but unfortunately life being the way it is, the election is going to be about choosing the lesser of two evils. Just as it always is. The policies that have been implemented during the Trump administration are (taken as a whole) much superior to what the Democrats are likely to do if they win the election. That's what you have to balance.

Of course, I also tend to think that the media overplay the results of his demeanor, making it look much worse than it really is. For example, media articles on the current riots are doing their best to pin the blame for this on Trump. They're not citing any facts, just relying on sophistry to leave you with that impression. It's pretty effective too.
Yes, the media certainly doesn't make any attempts to cast him in the best light...and they should try to remain more objective. However, he has done an incredibly poor job of maintaining a healthy relationship with them and while both sides are to blame, he is the president and to a degree critique and tough questions come with the position. He almost expects people to automatically fall in line behind him and when they don't he doesn't know how to deal with it. Within his businesses or administration any dissent is simply dealt with by firing the individual....unfortunately for him he can't fire the media.

There are many elements of the Democratic party that are very concerning to me. The trouble with Trump though is that he radicalizes the left even more and drives away moderates like myself and so undermines his policies which on the whole are not that radical but come across as such by his ineptitude at communicating them.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by doodle » Sun May 31, 2020 12:58 pm

I really am in a pickle with regards to voting this election. I see incredible downsides to both candidates. Both sides of the political spectrum have been radicalized to a degree that is frightening. I am really hopeful that if things continue to spiral in this country a third party candidate enters the race. Would any Republicans here consider jumping parties to either a third party or a democratic late entrant of more moderate persuasion...a Mark Cuban type character perhaps?
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