Is Trump doing a good job?

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technovelist
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by technovelist » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:45 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
  • Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
  • If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
  • Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.

Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:52 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:36 pm
Perhaps the processes for obtaining more tests and treatments are going much more smoothly but ventilators need the attention right now.
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
All of those things are in the works right now.
If ramping up production of treatments (like hydroxychloroquine) are underway and are going smoothly, have we been getting regular updates about it from the government? My understanding is that thus far, we haven’t.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tyler » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:03 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:53 am
We got a lot of engineers here, right? Why even give the impression this is doable in a quick fashion? Even if you took an existing design, you still have to source and create parts, PCBs, make tooling, test fixtures, etc, etc.
Engineer here.

The car manufacturers are not necessarily talking about managing the full ventilator production line in-house. Here's a more detailed quote that gives a better idea of what they can realistically offer on short notice:

GM said Friday that it's collaborating with Ventec Life Systems to help the company increase output of its respiratory care products, including by providing logistics, purchasing and manufacturing resources.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... 895190001/

Complex products can only be manufactured as fast as the slowest component in the line. It's all about supply chain, and that's what car manufacturers are really good at. So companies like GM can help the ventilator suppliers massively increase their own throughput.

For example, the car manufacturers have entire factories full of CNC machines that can be quickly reprogrammed literally overnight to machine any other metal part that a ventilator manufacturer needs. And they also have the supply chain technology in place to efficiently distribute those parts all around the country to where it's needed most in real time.

BTW, note that Trump is calling them out for slow-walking their own promises while driving up the price.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:24 pm

technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
  • Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
  • If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
  • Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.

Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:34 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:24 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
  • Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
  • If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
  • Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.

Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.

Vinny
Only if you are in direct command with the power of authority to mete out severe negative consequences. I don't really think Trump is in that position. And if we get to where he does, we have far worse things to worry about than making some company make a product.
Vocation - doing what God has given me to do for the sake of the other.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by shekels » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:42 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:24 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
  • Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
  • If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
  • Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.

Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.

Vinny
Wow.. This is why the 2 Amendment exists.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by CT-Scott » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:52 pm

Meanwhile, he's now sparring on Twitter with Representative Thomas Massie, one of the few representatives who actually cares about limited government, the US Constitution, and accountability.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:06 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:52 pm
flyingpylon wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:36 pm
Perhaps the processes for obtaining more tests and treatments are going much more smoothly but ventilators need the attention right now.
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
All of those things are in the works right now.
If ramping up production of treatments (like hydroxychloroquine) are underway and are going smoothly, have we been getting regular updates about it from the government? My understanding is that thus far, we haven’t.
Seems like nothing has been spoon-fed to us, but there are probably other ways to find out for anyone that wants to look into it.

Tests and treatments can be going "more smoothly" than ventilators without actually going "smoothly". It's all relative.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:45 pm

One thing Trump seems to be doing really well during this pandemic is recognizing the importance of hope and psychology as part of our overall strategy. He seems to be doing his best to give at least a glimmer of hope to the American people regarding the return to work and daily life.

This isn't just a medical and economic crisis. It's a social crisis as well, because we are human beings and we are scared of the unknown. The medical experts are focused on medicine, not psychology, so they want to take the most conservative medical approach of keeping the economy and society in a medically-induced coma for months -- without speculating as to when people might be able to start returning to work.

By contrast, Trump seems to recognize that a glimmer of hope can help ease the panic slightly and give people a small measure of comfort in the midst of chaos. As Scott Adams has pointed out on his podcast, people -- and markets, and managers, etc. -- almost universally prefer a wildly speculative guess to no guess at all. Any schedule, even one that's likely wrong and will need to be heavily revised, is preferable to no schedule at all.

So yes, Trump is obligated to listen to his medical experts' advice and take it into serious consideration, but he's not obligated to follow their advice. Because ultimately, Trump is making decisions that involve more than just medicine and health. He's performing cost/benefit analyses and making higher-level leadership decisions that also impact the economy and broader human society.

Yes, Trump has occasionally made blunders and mistakes, and continues to do so. But his expertise in persuasion is helping to calm the minds of the American people by giving them something to look forward to this coming Easter -- whether it's good news or just revised estimates and strategies.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tortoise » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:38 pm

technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Sure enough, Trump has now invoked the Defense Production Act to compel GM to produce ventilators:

https://apple.news/ANDKwRq3URRW5NmUFanqn7g
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:53 pm

shekels wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:42 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:24 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
  • Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
  • If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
  • Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.

Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.

Vinny
Wow.. This is why the 2 Amendment exists.
I'm not following your logic.

One time when I was the head of our accounting department for our business I spent an hour trying to explain to an employee why something had to be done a certain way. Her doing this part of the job was critical to everyone else getting their jobs done and the big picture getting accomplished.

After that hour was up I believed I'd spent sufficient time listening to her point of view and my trying to persuade her of mine and if we spent any more time discussing then there was not going to be enough time left for her to accomplish this essential task. So that was one of the rare times I actually had to order someone to get something done. It's why I still so remember it 40 years later.

And, I believe that persuasion is the greatest form of leadership while someone who routinely relies upon positional power by giving orders is generally a poor leader.

You get people to do it. But you are not getting the whole person to do it.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by shekels » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:52 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:53 pm
shekels wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:42 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:24 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
technovelist wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:08 pm
A few questions:
  • Why is Trump focusing on producing more ventilators rather than more tests and treatments (e.g., hydrochloroquine)? If CV patients are treated and get better quickly, the vast majority of them won't end up on ventilators.
  • If we look at the nations that have handled their CV outbreaks most effectively thus far (such as South Korea), didn't their effectiveness come largely from their early, widespread testing and tracking -- not from massive numbers of ventilators?
  • Whether we decide to focus on producing more tests, treatments, or ventilators, why does Trump need to convince companies via Twitter to help? Why not invoke wartime powers to forcibly convert certain factories immediately? This pandemic is a world war with a virus, is it not?
He can walk and chew gum at the same time.
All of those things are in the works right now.
As to why he doesn't force companies to act when they are coming forward to volunteer, I'm not sure how to explain that if it isn't obvious.
Because most effective leadership requires making orders to utilize ALL available resources, not just those volunteered.

Vinny
You obviously don't understand motivation at all.
I'm glad you're not my manager.
I totally believe in leading by persuasion. But when that fails and the job HAS to be done then, as a last resort, you order.

Vinny
Wow.. This is why the 2 Amendment exists.
I'm not following your logic.

One time when I was the head of our accounting department for our business I spent an hour trying to explain to an employee why something had to be done a certain way. Her doing this part of the job was critical to everyone else getting their jobs done and the big picture getting accomplished.

After that hour was up I believed I'd spent sufficient time listening to her point of view and my trying to persuade her of mine and if we spent any more time discussing then there was not going to be enough time left for her to accomplish this essential task. So that was one of the rare times I actually had to order someone to get something done. It's why I still so remember it 40 years later.

And, I believe that persuasion is the greatest form of leadership while someone who routinely relies upon positional power by giving orders is generally a poor leader.

You get people to do it. But you are not getting the whole person to do it.

Vinny
Excuse me if I misunderstood,
The way it came off to me was that things are going to change ether way.
By persuasion, and if that fails force.
Sounds a like bit like reeducation or death.
Edit:
To Force a Public company to change business practices does not sound like Liberty to me.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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