Countering medical cost myths

[Maddy]

58 and take 3. Mediocre genes.

. . . Alzheimer's (which has been rightly dubbed as type 3 diabetes).

Please explain! Sounds interesting.

[jacksonm2]

The average 30-year-old is on SEVEN (7) prescription medications??

And 70 is pretty old, I guess, but TWENTY-SIX drugs is the average??

I read that 90% of those over 65 are taking either blood pressure or cholesterol medications. But I'm as astounded as you are by each of the stats you cited. I've made it so far to 68 without ever having any routine medications.

Vinny

Likewise. I'll be 60 in Feb and I take nothing.

I'm 70 and so far I take nothing but beer and pot for my ailments. Can't be any worse than 26 drugs, can it?

[jacksonm2]

58 and take 3. Mediocre genes.

. . . Alzheimer's (which has been rightly dubbed as type 3 diabetes).

Please explain! Sounds interesting.

I thought cancer was being dubbed as type 3 diabetes.

[Xan]

Certainly seems like most here are relatively non-medicated. WiseOne's nightmare scenario above stretches to get in the 20-25 range. Krieg's chart shows 27 as the average for a 70-year-old. Does that mean for every 70-ish person here on no meds, there's one out there on 50?

And are there really 30-year-olds on 7 prescriptions? On AVERAGE?

That chart's got to be wrong. ...Doesn't it?

[vnatale]

58 and take 3. Mediocre genes.

Or zealous MDs on the preventive med bandwagon.

Most people aren't like this crowd though. Your typical 65 year old is on: aspirin +/- Plavix, a statin, 2-3 blood pressure meds, 2-3 diabetes meds, 2-3 pain medications, an antidepressant or two, a proton-pump inhibitor, supplements such as iron, vitamin D, and calcium, Fosamax or equivalent, and a pile of "as-needed" meds for sleep, anxiety etc. Plus Aricept for those diagnosed with Alzheimer's (which has been rightly dubbed as type 3 diabetes).

To quote Malcolm Kendrick, I suppose it saves on food.

Had no idea of this! I will immediately start polling some of my 65 and over friends / others to see how their lists match with the above!

Vinny

[vnatale]

Certainly seems like most here are relatively non-medicated. WiseOne's nightmare scenario above stretches to get in the 20-25 range. Krieg's chart shows 27 as the average for a 70-year-old. Does that mean for every 70-ish person here on no meds, there's one out there on 50?

And are there really 30-year-olds on 7 prescriptions? On AVERAGE?

That chart's got to be wrong. ...Doesn't it?

Anyone find any similar type charts from different sources? I'm with you in terms of incredulity!

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

58 and take 3. Mediocre genes.

Or zealous MDs on the preventive med bandwagon.

Most people aren't like this crowd though. Your typical 65 year old is on: aspirin +/- Plavix, a statin, 2-3 blood pressure meds, 2-3 diabetes meds, 2-3 pain medications, an antidepressant or two, a proton-pump inhibitor, supplements such as iron, vitamin D, and calcium, Fosamax or equivalent, and a pile of "as-needed" meds for sleep, anxiety etc. Plus Aricept for those diagnosed with Alzheimer's (which has been rightly dubbed as type 3 diabetes).

To quote Malcolm Kendrick, I suppose it saves on food.

I find that 0.5 shot of brandy, scotch or bourbon works really well for both anxiety and sleep inducement.

Surely your decimal point was one place to the left of where you intended.

On another note, I've heard the person who may be typing this would say: no asprin or Plavix, one statin, two bp meds, no diabetes meds, no pain meds, no antidepressants, one GERD suppresant, one supplement - calcium, no fosamax or equivalent, no as needed meds for sleep or anxiety. But that scotch sounds tasty and promising.

[ochotona]

So what does the research say about preventative medicine and minimzing public (or family) health care costs? Don't do preventative health care? Treat oneself like a mobile phone, use yourself until you breaks, make no effort to prevent failures, happily jump into the dirt box?

Along those lines, at ExxonMobil they always used to have lots of food left over after catered company lunch meetings, this was before the oil price crashed. The post-lunch pickings were excellent; there'd be 1/3 or 1/2 an aluminum catering tray left with penne pasta and chicken breat in Alfredo sauce, or fajitas, etc.

Then I realized it... by overfeeding employees now, the Corporation was controlling pension expenses!

[vnatale]

So what does the research say about preventative medicine and minimzing public (or family) health care costs? Don't do preventative health care? Treat oneself like a mobile phone, use yourself until you breaks, make no effort to prevent failures, happily jump into the dirt box?

Along those lines, at ExxonMobil they always used to have lots of food left over after catered company lunch meetings, this was before the oil price crashed. The post-lunch pickings were excellent; there'd be 1/3 or 1/2 an aluminum catering tray left with penne pasta and chicken breat in Alfredo sauce, or fajitas, etc.

Then I realized it... by overfeeding employees now, the Corporation was controlling pension expenses!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Same thing with all those smokers putting less of a strain on Social Security and Medicare since they are dead long before us?

Vinny

[Kriegsspiel]

Certainly seems like most here are relatively non-medicated. WiseOne's nightmare scenario above stretches to get in the 20-25 range. Krieg's chart shows 27 as the average for a 70-year-old. Does that mean for every 70-ish person here on no meds, there's one out there on 50?

And are there really 30-year-olds on 7 prescriptions? On AVERAGE?

That chart's got to be wrong. ...Doesn't it?

Anyone find any similar type charts from different sources? I'm with you in terms of incredulity!

Vinny

The original paper the chart was in was linked in the post on MR. It goes into a lot more detail.

[Kriegsspiel]

Then I realized it... by overfeeding employees now, the Corporation was controlling pension expenses!

[ochotona]

It's like Dilbert where the product is killing people. The management meeting is headlined by:

"Decline in unsatisfied customers"

[Kriegsspiel]

And are there really 30-year-olds on 7 prescriptions? On AVERAGE?

That chart's got to be wrong. ...Doesn't it?

I just happened upon these two recent articles corroborating what I've read previously:

Millennial health is deteriorating faster than older generations — at a steep economic cost

Millennials are less healthy than Gen X and it may be due to mental illness, Blue Cross report finds

[Maddy]

31 percent of millinneals have major depression--and 15 percent are flat-out psychotic?

The article goes on to explain how this mental health crisis can be explained by the unusual hardships experienced by this generation:

Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic.

Good Lord.

[Mountaineer]

31 percent of millinneals have major depression--and 15 percent are flat-out psychotic?

The article goes on to explain how this mental health crisis can be explained by the unusual hardships experienced by this generation:

Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic.

Good Lord.

It's almost winter. Snowflakes are proliferating.

[vnatale]

31 percent of millinneals have major depression--and 15 percent are flat-out psychotic?

The article goes on to explain how this mental health crisis can be explained by the unusual hardships experienced by this generation:

Some younger millennials watched their parents lose their homes and jobs, potentially setting them up for lasting psychological problems and making them vulnerable to substance abuse and the opioid epidemic.

Good Lord.

How does this compare to the outcomes for those who grew up in the 1930s, during The Depression? My father was 17 to 27 years old during that decade? He was an immigrant in 1926 or 1927 (at the age of 13, coming into the country knowing no English) who established himself (and, our family) into the middle class. I guess, though, that the major thing that affected both him and my mother (five years younger than my father but NOT an immigrant those a daughter of immigrants) (and, through osmosis me) was GREAT frugality.

Vinny

[WiseOne]

Pugchief, I'm with you on the half shot of brandy!

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Sloppy statistics is also what preventive medication recommendations are made from. That, and the obvious conflicts of interest involved (i.e. the drug company that will make tons of money from the med funds the study and makes friends with the researchers.) Here's an example:

Lipitor is advertised to reduce heart attack risk by 36%. This is because in one of the Lipitor studies, the rate of heart attacks in the statin group was 0.35%, while the rate in the placebo group was 0.76%. That's an ABSOLUTE difference of 0.41%, which means you would need to treat ~250 people to prevent one heart attack (and the other 249 people would get no benefit). Meanwhile, what they don't tell you is that the number of strokes in the Lipitor group was greater than the number in the placebo group, and the mortality rate was equal in the 2 groups. Not only that, but they stopped the study before a particularly dangerous and fairly common long-term side effect of Lipitor (developing diabetes) could start to impact the outcomes. Not to mention the other adverse effects of Lipitor like dementia and muscle damage - which may not be reversed by stopping the drug.

There's a similar story with just about every preventive medication out there. And let's not even get started on screening tests, which are virtually all similarly nonproductive (except colonoscopy before age 75).

[vnatale]

Pugchief, I'm with you on the half shot of brandy!

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Sloppy statistics is also what preventive medication recommendations are made from. That, and the obvious conflicts of interest involved (i.e. the drug company that will make tons of money from the med funds the study and makes friends with the researchers.) Here's an example:

Lipitor is advertised to reduce heart attack risk by 36%. This is because in one of the Lipitor studies, the rate of heart attacks in the statin group was 0.35%, while the rate in the placebo group was 0.76%. That's an ABSOLUTE difference of 0.41%, which means you would need to treat ~250 people to prevent one heart attack (and the other 249 people would get no benefit). Meanwhile, what they don't tell you is that the number of strokes in the Lipitor group was greater than the number in the placebo group, and the mortality rate was equal in the 2 groups. Not only that, but they stopped the study before a particularly dangerous and fairly common long-term side effect of Lipitor (developing diabetes) could start to impact the outcomes. Not to mention the other adverse effects of Lipitor like dementia and muscle damage - which may not be reversed by stopping the drug.

There's a similar story with just about every preventive medication out there. And let's not even get started on screening tests, which are virtually all similarly nonproductive (except colonoscopy before age 75).

I am interested if you are aware of this book. And, if so, what is your evaluation of it and its proscriptions. I read it in one day and was thoroughly swayed by it. I then read it again, taking copious notes from me, and finally distilled that further into specific food choices and other specific choices to implement in my life.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/080107522X/?c ... _lig_dp_it

The Aging Brain: Proven Steps to Prevent Dementia and Sharpen Your Mind

Vinny

[vnatale]

Vinny, please give us your executive summary.

What specific food choices and lifestyle changes are you making?

I am known far and wide as Mr. Detail. And, NOT GOOD, at Executive Summaries! But here is a quick attempt.

I first read this book in 2015: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/031612091X/ ... _lig_dp_it

Eat to Live: The Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss, Revised Edition

That is what caused me to be a vegan at home.

Then in conjunction with reading the Aging Brain book this summer, around the same time, I also read this other book by Dr. Fuhrman: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/006 ... bl_vppi_i6

The End of Dieting: How to Live for Life

The combination of that book and The Aging Brain caused me to eat a lot more vegetables than I had been.

The Aging Brain book motivated me to buy a bunch of supplements to take that I've yet to work into my daily routine. It reaffirmed my committed exercise program.

My friend who introduced me to the book read it initially for its dementia process but in the process of him implementing its proscriptions he lost 30 pounds over less than six months.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Vinny, please give us your executive summary.

What specific food choices and lifestyle changes are you making?

Capture.PNG (45.68 KiB) Viewed 4744 times

The above may be too tiny to read but this is what I put together from the book which (for me) were either something new or things I wanted to reaffirm I was already doing. Then, when I went through the 2nd Dr. Furhman book I created a much larger worksheet than this one. That worksheet's main focus was on which foods to consume.

Vinny

[jacksonm2]

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.

[vnatale]

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.

What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny

[jacksonm2]

Maddy: Alzheimer's rate is increasing much faster than would be predicted if the age-adjusted rate were stable. Right away that tells you that whatever is driving it has little to do with genetics. Instead, there's a body of literature (epidemiology and physiological mechanism studies) linking Alzheimer's to insulin resistance. Pretty amazing stuff if you go digging in the literature. For a shortcut, look up lectures by Amy Bergman on youtube. She makes a few nonscientific leaps of logic, but overall I think she is on point.

Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.

What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny

I have gum disease so I was getting cleanings 4 times per year. Decided to forego it for a while after I retired about 3 years ago to see what would happen if I just took good care of my teeth. Well, guess what? The "numbers" hadn't changed a bit which makes me question the whole idea of frequent cleanings now.

As for the sugar, I don't know how much of a factor that really was but I'm sure it didn't hurt cutting it out of my diet. I eat some fruit but stick to those low in fructose - mostly avocado smoothies with some berries thrown in. Some times I'll throw in one small piece of banana.

[vnatale]

Just started visiting the dentist for cleanings after not going for a couple of years and the hygienist was amazed at what little plaque buildup I had and now have in between cleanings.

Do you suppose the keto diet I've been on with intermittent fasting (daily) and cutting out all sugar except for occasional fruit has something to do with it?

I've read that Alzheimer's is caused by a process similar to plaque buildup on your teeth so I'm hoping this is also a good anti-Alzheimer's diet.

What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny

I have gum disease so I was getting cleanings 4 times per year. Decided to forego it for a while after I retired about 3 years ago to see what would happen if I just took good care of my teeth. Well, guess what? The "numbers" hadn't changed a bit which makes me question the whole idea of frequent cleanings now.

As for the sugar, I don't know how much of a factor that really was but I'm sure it didn't hurt cutting it out of my diet. I eat some fruit but stick to those low in fructose - mostly avocado smoothies with some berries thrown in. Some times I'll throw in one small piece of banana.

Way back thirty plus years ago the periodontist told me I needed the expensive operation because my gums had receded so much. Or, something like that. I'm forgetting precisely what it was given the so much passage of time.

But he said, let's first try a deep cleaning. Which was then paying $75 just to do one quarter of your mouth at a time. So, four appointments. I think he said after he'd finished, let's give it some time to see what happens. By the time I went back to see "what HAD happened" I was psychologically prepared for this expensive work on my gums. And, was I shocked (and pleased) when he said you are now doing fine. No need for it.

And, I've not heard a word from my dentist of their even being a re-occurrence of what led him to sending me to the periodontist in the first place.

My frequent cleanings evolved from...initially going just once a year...and that turned out too be way too painful because of all the scraping that had to be done. So, I proposed twice. I'm now forgetting the exact reasons how it has now evolved into three times a year. I consider a relative small price to pay to hold on to one's teeth for hopefully ones entire life.

[jacksonm2]

What has been your history?

I've been off sugar since 1985 (but tons of fruit) yet I go for three cleanings per year so as to make the whole experience much less painful. I'm known as the model patient for the way I take care of my teeth (flossing and brushing). I seem to be prone to plaque buildup thus my attention to self-care and going to get the teeth cleaned every four months. Which I pay every cent of the costs of doing so.

Vinny

I have gum disease so I was getting cleanings 4 times per year. Decided to forego it for a while after I retired about 3 years ago to see what would happen if I just took good care of my teeth. Well, guess what? The "numbers" hadn't changed a bit which makes me question the whole idea of frequent cleanings now.

As for the sugar, I don't know how much of a factor that really was but I'm sure it didn't hurt cutting it out of my diet. I eat some fruit but stick to those low in fructose - mostly avocado smoothies with some berries thrown in. Some times I'll throw in one small piece of banana.

Way back thirty plus years ago the periodontist told me I needed the expensive operation because my gums had receded so much. Or, something like that. I'm forgetting precisely what it was given the so much passage of time.

But he said, let's first try a deep cleaning. Which was then paying $75 just to do one quarter of your mouth at a time. So, four appointments. I think he said after he'd finished, let's give it some time to see what happens. By the time I went back to see "what HAD happened" I was psychologically prepared for this expensive work on my gums. And, was I shocked (and pleased) when he said you are now doing fine. No need for it.

And, I've not heard a word from my dentist of their even being a re-occurrence of what led him to sending me to the periodontist in the first place.

My frequent cleanings evolved from...initially going just once a year...and that turned out too be way too painful because of all the scraping that had to be done. So, I proposed twice. I'm now forgetting the exact reasons how it has now evolved into three times a year. I consider a relative small price to pay to hold on to one's teeth for hopefully ones entire life.

I once went to a dentist who said I had periodontal disease and needed all kinds of treatment. Turns out he told nearly every patient that and fortunately he got busted for it before my treatment started.