Ukranian phone call

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Xan
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Ukranian phone call

Post by Xan » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am

Okay, I've been trying to make heads or tails out of this whole situation.

It seems that the Biden family may have used the leverage of US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain: specifically in order to get a prosecutor fired and/or a case dropped.

Trump asked the Ukranian president to help investigate the situation.

Apparently that request itself consists of leveraging US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain and is impeachable.

So, if you're somebody who thinks that leveraging US military aid for personal gain is a big bugaboo (which I'll agree to), then wouldn't you want the president to investigate whether the former vice president did exactly that? And how would he do it without the Ukranians' help?

What is it that makes the request suspicious? Is it the involvement of Trump's personal lawyer? Is it the temporary pause on military aid to Ukraine in the weeks before the phone call? Has that been linked to the phone call in any way? Is it that Trump does stand to gain by Biden's corruption being uncovered? That's pretty indirect at this point: Biden is far from being the nominee. Compared to Biden's immediate personal gain of having that case dropped.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:08 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am
Apparently that request itself consists of leveraging US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain and is impeachable.
The problem is that there is no objective definition of an "impeachable offense"... it's simply whatever the politicians say it is. They'll vote for or against impeachment based almost solely on whatever they think will keep them in power.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:40 am

Interesting observation:

The only question that matters is this one:

Is an investigation into the Bidens properly predicated?

If the answer is yes, then there is absolutely nothing wrong in pursuing our country's continued commitment to rooting out corruption in Ukraine by requesting an investigation into the possibility of corruption by a Vice President of the United States who may have used his office for nepotistic purposes.

If the answer is no, then there is indeed a problem with requesting a foreign government to investigate the Bidens. This could then be rightfully construed as using government power to strongarm a foreign state to get dirt on a political rival.

So which is it? Is the investigation predicated or not?

Here are the 2010 FBI guidelines outlining what constitutes predication:

A predicated investigation may be initiated on the basis of any of the following
circumstances:
a. An activity constituting a federal crime or a threat to the national security
has or may have occurred, is or may be occurring, or will or may occur and
the investigation may obtain information relating to the activity or the
involvement or role of an individual, group, or organization in such
activity.
b. An individual, group, organization, entity, information, property, or
activity is or may be a target of attack, victimization, acquisition,
infiltration, or recruitment in connection with criminal activity in violation
of federal law or a threat to the national security and the investigation may
obtain information that would help to protect against such activity or
threat.
c. The investigation may obtain foreign intelligence that is responsive to a
foreign intelligence requirement.


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Professor of Theology
Concordia University, Ann Arbor
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Tyler » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:13 am

Personally I interpret this latest push for impeachment as an indicator of just how poorly Dems see their chances against Trump in the next election. It's interesting that they're willing to sacrifice their own leading candidate in the process. Maybe they see the writing on the wall and agree with Al Green when he said "if we don’t impeach this president, he will get re-elected."
Last edited by Tyler on Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by moda0306 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:48 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am
Okay, I've been trying to make heads or tails out of this whole situation.

It seems that the Biden family may have used the leverage of US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain: specifically in order to get a prosecutor fired and/or a case dropped.

Trump asked the Ukranian president to help investigate the situation.

Apparently that request itself consists of leveraging US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain and is impeachable.

So, if you're somebody who thinks that leveraging US military aid for personal gain is a big bugaboo (which I'll agree to), then wouldn't you want the president to investigate whether the former vice president did exactly that? And how would he do it without the Ukranians' help?

What is it that makes the request suspicious? Is it the involvement of Trump's personal lawyer? Is it the temporary pause on military aid to Ukraine in the weeks before the phone call? Has that been linked to the phone call in any way? Is it that Trump does stand to gain by Biden's corruption being uncovered? That's pretty indirect at this point: Biden is far from being the nominee. Compared to Biden's immediate personal gain of having that case dropped.
Totally agree with the bolded. Both Biden and Trump deserve heavy scrutiny over this. They're both as crooked as the day is long, IMO.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:47 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:48 am
Xan wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am
Okay, I've been trying to make heads or tails out of this whole situation.

It seems that the Biden family may have used the leverage of US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain: specifically in order to get a prosecutor fired and/or a case dropped.

Trump asked the Ukranian president to help investigate the situation.

Apparently that request itself consists of leveraging US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain and is impeachable.

So, if you're somebody who thinks that leveraging US military aid for personal gain is a big bugaboo (which I'll agree to), then wouldn't you want the president to investigate whether the former vice president did exactly that? And how would he do it without the Ukranians' help?

What is it that makes the request suspicious? Is it the involvement of Trump's personal lawyer? Is it the temporary pause on military aid to Ukraine in the weeks before the phone call? Has that been linked to the phone call in any way? Is it that Trump does stand to gain by Biden's corruption being uncovered? That's pretty indirect at this point: Biden is far from being the nominee. Compared to Biden's immediate personal gain of having that case dropped.
Totally agree with the bolded. Both Biden and Trump deserve heavy scrutiny over this. They're both as crooked as the day is long, IMO.
I agree. I believe the MSM is doing themselves a disservice by totally ignoring the Biden portion of this, and I am a guy who gives very little love to Trump. If you are going to screw with him, you have to screw with Biden.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by stuper1 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:21 pm

Here's the thing that gets me, guys and gals. Trump I'm sure is no choir boy, but he made his money in business before entering politics. The Biden family has made all of its money essentially due to politics. So, putting aside personalities and styles, which one of these two do you really think is more crooked?
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by moda0306 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:47 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:21 pm
Here's the thing that gets me, guys and gals. Trump I'm sure is no choir boy, but he made his money in business before entering politics. The Biden family has made all of its money essentially due to politics. So, putting aside personalities and styles, which one of these two do you really think is more crooked?
It's really hard to say... luckily, we can get more than one political guillotine oiled up at a time.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:51 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 am
Okay, I've been trying to make heads or tails out of this whole situation.

It seems that the Biden family may have used the leverage of US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain: specifically in order to get a prosecutor fired and/or a case dropped.

Trump asked the Ukranian president to help investigate the situation.

Apparently that request itself consists of leveraging US military aid to Ukraine for personal gain and is impeachable.

So, if you're somebody who thinks that leveraging US military aid for personal gain is a big bugaboo (which I'll agree to), then wouldn't you want the president to investigate whether the former vice president did exactly that? And how would he do it without the Ukranians' help?

What is it that makes the request suspicious? Is it the involvement of Trump's personal lawyer? Is it the temporary pause on military aid to Ukraine in the weeks before the phone call? Has that been linked to the phone call in any way? Is it that Trump does stand to gain by Biden's corruption being uncovered? That's pretty indirect at this point: Biden is far from being the nominee. Compared to Biden's immediate personal gain of having that case dropped.
Per a NYT reporter, Ukraine was not made aware that their military aid could have been cut off.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by jacksonm2 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:00 pm

I, for one, want to know all about the story of Biden and his son. I heard about it in bits and pieces in the past but had no idea about the possible extent of corruption.

For someone who campaigned on a promise to come to Washington and "drain the swamp" what, exactly, is wrong with this? Is there some unwritten rule in governance that says corruption on the part of the previous administration is supposed to be swept under the rug?
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by boglerdude » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:27 pm

Politics as usual. We just have social media now. Whats funny about human nature is we act outraged when an injustice to Our Guy happens, but would be fine with impeachment even if facts had to be "stretched a little." People cant admit that when it suits them, two wrongs make a right.

Is the rest of the world getting less news worthy? Hows Africa doing
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:51 am

And now this has come to light.

https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/27/in ... knowledge/

If the report that the whistleblower is CIA is true, this new piece of data points only in a few possible directions, almost all of them really bad in their implications.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49848103

Connect the dots!
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:27 am

Take a look into how Pelosi and the Democrats changed the House rules to essentially create a new impeachment process that excludes the minority and avoids transparency. It’s anything but “politics as usual”.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:26 am

boglerdude wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:27 pm
Whats funny about human nature is we act outraged when an injustice to Our Guy happens, but would be fine with impeachment even if facts had to be "stretched a little."
That's certainly the position of the social egalitarians. Everybody's equally unprincipled.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Greg » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:57 am

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politi ... gle.com%2F

Saw this in the morning and thought it was helpful to read regarding fact checking.
.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:42 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:20 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:27 am
Take a look into how Pelosi and the Democrats changed the House rules to essentially create a new impeachment process that excludes the minority and avoids transparency. It’s anything but “politics as usual”.
Link?
Here’s one: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/20 ... two-weeks/
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Tyler » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:22 pm

Greg wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:57 am
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politi ... gle.com%2F

Saw this in the morning and thought it was helpful to read regarding fact checking.
.
If you're interested in the truth, IMO this "fact check" is laughably one-sided.

For example, claiming that Hunter Biden wasn't under investigation skirts the larger issue that a company in a corruption probe was able to buy their way out by hiring the son of the man who bragged about getting the prosecutor fired. Just picture how CNN would report it if Trump and his son were in the same situation. And here's a good summary of CrowdStrike that doesn't simply sweep the issue aside as "confusing" or a "conspiracy theory": https://amgreatness.com/2019/09/25/ukra ... hat-wasnt/

One can dislike Trump and still admit that many prominent Dems are neck deep in shady foreign deals that deserve to be investigated.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by shekels » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:11 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:42 am
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:20 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:27 am
Take a look into how Pelosi and the Democrats changed the House rules to essentially create a new impeachment process that excludes the minority and avoids transparency. It’s anything but “politics as usual”.
Link?
Here’s one: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/20 ... two-weeks/

Along with This. >:D
Intel Community Secretly Gutted Requirement Of First-Hand Whistleblower Knowledge

https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/27/in ... knowledge/

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.”
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Greg » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:17 pm

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/whist ... knowledge/

False according to Snopes

"Did US Intelligence Eliminate a Requirement That Whistleblowers Provide Firsthand Knowledge?
A conspiracy theory about the "deep state" got shared widely by the president and his supporters."
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by dualstow » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:19 pm

Greg, it turns out that those who tend to believe in stuff that gets discredited by Snopes...discredit Snopes itself. The first people I discovered who do this are my own parents, (sigh). O0

Not necessarily you, Shekels. Just a common trend online.

EDIT: Yeah, Stuper below? Perfect example. O0
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by stuper1 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:45 pm

I'm sure that Snopes is completely trustworthy and lacking in bias. Why wouldn't they be?
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am

The fact that Snopes "fact checks" The Babylon Bee (an obviously satirical website) is worth noting, even if it doesn't change anyone's opinion.

Anyway, this article makes some good points even if it overlooks Obama's role in the process.

Impeachment is Regime Suicide - The ruling class still believes in a consensus that doesn’t exist. Their legitimacy is vanishing.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:12 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am
The fact that Snopes "fact checks" The Babylon Bee (an obviously satirical website) is worth noting, even if it doesn't change anyone's opinion.

Anyway, this article makes some good points even if it overlooks Obama's role in the process.

Impeachment is Regime Suicide - The ruling class still believes in a consensus that doesn’t exist. Their legitimacy is vanishing.

I hadn't been to the Bee in a while. There's some really good stuff! Most relevant to this discussion:

Snopes Rates The Devil's Lies As 'Mostly True'
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by shekels » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:20 am

Greg wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:17 pm
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/whist ... knowledge/

False according to Snopes

"Did US Intelligence Eliminate a Requirement That Whistleblowers Provide Firsthand Knowledge?
A conspiracy theory about the "deep state" got shared widely by the president and his supporters."
Snopes is not my go to site for anything.
So what does Snopes say about Biden getting the Ukraine Prosecutor fired?

If first hand knowledge is not required to call out someone actions, what is required to legitimize the case?

If Some BU]]srap story is made up, Lets say a quid pro quo against a President without first hand knowledge .
Is it really considered Credible and by whom?

Based entirely on hearsay, because if is NOT just all Hearsay it is a White House Leaker.

White House Leaker or Russian Spy? Your call on if the whistle blower is a Russian spy based on the person who heard it from a friend
who heard it from a friend.
What an amazing coincidence.

The government is a corrupt criminal enterprise. including the intelligence agencies.
Every government agency has been corrupted to serve their masters.
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Re: Ukranian phone call

Post by dualstow » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:24 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am
The fact that Snopes "fact checks" The Babylon Bee (an obviously satirical website) is worth noting, even if it doesn't change anyone's opinion.
Hah! That really is weird. The only Babylon Bee story I ever saw was about Warren appearing in paleface at a college party, an obvious (and clever) parody of Trudeau’s brownface scandal. I should read it now and then.
Anyway, this article makes some good points even if it overlooks Obama's role in the process.
Impeachment is Regime Suicide - The ruling class still believes in a consensus that doesn’t exist. Their legitimacy is vanishing.
I enjoyed that article, although the page is badly in need of a proofreader.

I especially like this part: “The old saying is that if you strike at a king, be sure to kill him. In this case, the regime is striking not a king but at the very idea that an elected official can challenge the establishment. ”
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