Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

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dualstow
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by dualstow » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:27 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:15 am
I had similar reservations about Joe Lieberman when he was running for president a while back. As an Orthodox Jew, his first allegiance is to Israel, not the US. He responded to that, but as I recall never actually came out and said that he was breaking with tradition and giving top priority to the US. More broadly, is it OK for someone running for President to have dual citizenship? Technically that's permissible but I would not be in favor.
Hey Soph, following up on this, I'm not sure if it's true. I had to look it up because the grand total of what I know about Joe Lieberman is that he sounds permanently constipated when he talks.

I couldn't find anything about dual citizenship on his wiki page, and I also googled it. What I found was that Farrakhan has been spreading that around.
Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan on Friday questioned the national loyalty of Democratic vice presidential candidate Joseph I. Lieberman, asking if his Jewish religion would make him more faithful to Israel or the United States.

“Mr. Lieberman, as an Orthodox Jew, is also a dual citizen of Israel,” Farrakhan asserted incorrectly.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

The article's author didn't explicitly state that both items are wrong, so I rechecked other sources. Lieberman doesn't have dual citizenship. He claims to be an "observant Jew." Orthodox? I'm not sure. His wife is a Reform Jew.

None of this changes the fact that, as I replied earlier, I also wouldn't want an Orthodox Jew in the White House, for various reasons.
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:55 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:45 am
Just like the fact that you’re an apologist for an orange buffoon with his finger on the button. . .
I'm an apologist for the rule of law--nothing more, nothing less. But the most glaring examples of corruption and illegality are, at this time, coming from the Left.

And I see nothing of merit in the argument that corruption and illegality should be overlooked, accepted, or normalized simply because somebody else(s) has been equally guilty. That's the sophomoric mantra that has been at the heart of New Left doctrine for some time now: No one is, or can be, morally superior to anyone else. That pernicious ethic has served to justify and perpetuate a whole host of evils, and it has caused a sea change in the values of young Americans--once grounded in principle but now steeped in flat-out nihilism. Not only is corruption accepted and embraced, it has become fashionable to eschew the entire concept of principle--along with truthfulness, honor and virtue.

I've noticed something, Moda, and I've pointed it out before. You often attack under the guise of objectivity, utilizing some kind of pseudo-socratic method and appearing to be delving in good faith into the premises of your adversaries' arguments. However you can be counted on to consistently misrepresent the foundational premises of those arguments in a way that allows you to manipulate the debate. It's the antithesis of the Socratic method and was, in fact, the very technique used by the Sophists of ancient Greece to distort and deflect. You've done it twice to me now in this thread. I don't have the time or inclination to get into debates destined to be derailed by logical fallacies.
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by Xan » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:24 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:27 pm
sophie wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:15 am
I had similar reservations about Joe Lieberman when he was running for president a while back. As an Orthodox Jew, his first allegiance is to Israel, not the US. He responded to that, but as I recall never actually came out and said that he was breaking with tradition and giving top priority to the US. More broadly, is it OK for someone running for President to have dual citizenship? Technically that's permissible but I would not be in favor.
Hey Soph, following up on this, I'm not sure if it's true. I had to look it up because the grand total of what I know about Joe Lieberman is that he sounds permanently constipated when he talks.

I couldn't find anything about dual citizenship on his wiki page, and I also googled it. What I found was that Farrakhan has been spreading that around.
Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan on Friday questioned the national loyalty of Democratic vice presidential candidate Joseph I. Lieberman, asking if his Jewish religion would make him more faithful to Israel or the United States.

“Mr. Lieberman, as an Orthodox Jew, is also a dual citizen of Israel,” Farrakhan asserted incorrectly.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

The article's author didn't explicitly state that both items are wrong, so I rechecked other sources. Lieberman doesn't have dual citizenship. He claims to be an "observant Jew." Orthodox? I'm not sure. His wife is a Reform Jew.

None of this changes the fact that, as I replied earlier, I also wouldn't want an Orthodox Jew in the White House, for various reasons.
Yeah, that claim doesn't really make sense, I don't think. Surely for SOME Orthodox Jews it's true, what percentage I have no idea, but I don't think there's any way that calling yourself an Orthodox Jew means that you have to have your first allegiance to the modern nation-state of Israel.
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by sophie » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:18 am

Lieberman was orthodox at the time he was running for office - don't know about now. I looked into it because I thought his positions and views were mostly pretty reasonable.

He does or can claim dual citizenship under the Law of Return. However, Orthodox beliefs are very rigid compared to other sects, and the distinction between religion and the political state of Israel is not always clear-cut. This can create potential conflicts of interest, for example if the US developed a serious disagreement with a stand taken by Israel. Note that if you give this a pass, you are holding Presidents to a much lower conflict of interest standard than doctors. For example, I can't buy stock directly in any pharmaceutical or medical device company even if my work has nothing to do with the company in question, and this applies to immediate family members too. If I did that and someone wanted to throw the book at me, I could be subject to criminal penalties for doing so under the Stark Law.

As far as Ilhan Omar...you can't find this info online, but it is not clear whether she gave up her Somali citizenship when she became a naturalized US citizen. Since there is no mention of her renouncing it, it's probably the case that she hasn't.
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by dualstow » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:54 pm

sophie wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:18 am
Lieberman ...
He does or can claim dual citizenship under the Law of Return.
Well yeah but so could I, probably. I’d hate to think that invalidates me from running for Pres, or that my first loyalty is not to the U.S.
Part of the reason I wouldn’t want an Orthodox Jew in the White House is because of the way it might reflect on secular or even reform Jews. (I don’t think I would worry about anything happening to Mormons if Romney were elected, though).

And obviously, for those who already have concerns about Israel- Palestine, espionage, tax dollars - there would naturally be a continuing concern about Israel-friendly presidents.

I just think the idea that American Jews are loyal to Israel first and America second, especially those in office, sounds like...well you know what it sounds like.

—-
Ok, let me get back to accusing and disparaging Omar. O0
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by drumminj » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:33 am

dualstow wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:54 pm
I just think the idea that American Jews are loyal to Israel first and America second, especially those in office, sounds like...well you know what it sounds like.
Let me preface this by saying my intent is to engage in legitimate discourse and not stir the pot...I suspect I'm treading into risky territory...

I'm not Jewish (am white, male, raised presbyterian but am agnostic/athiest at this point), but over the last 20 years have had a number of close Jewish friends. One thing that's always struck me is the ingrained preference/positive bias towards other Jewish people (as far as romantic partners), and Jewish businesses.

For example, a good friend got married and chose a horrible wedding photographer -- why? Because it was one of the two jewish wedding photographers in the area, and simply choosing of the full pool of available/qualified photographers in the area was out of the question.

Another example -- another good friend who would only consider marrying a Jewish woman and wanting to procreate to ensure the proliferation/propagation of the Jewish race (I'm not speculating on motivation here, but had a number of conversations with both the man and the woman of the couple on this subject)

I get that these are just anecdotes, and I get that most cultures have similar biases towards marrying/preferring their own. But is it really unreasonable to observe common trends in certain cultures and consider/possibly be concerned about how that might impact one's motivations and priorities?

One thing I try to do when considering political candidates is understand their beliefs, motivations, and principles rather than worry about a particular stance on a particular topic, as stances/topics change, and I'd rather vote for/support a value system that aligns with mine. If someone is always going to be biased against me, or prioritize a different set of principles than I believe in, I think that's wholly appropriate to consider and/or be concerned about, no?

(Edit: I'd also say that one's personal beliefs and one's political principles can certainly be kept separate. One thing I really respected about Ron Paul is while he may have personally believed certain things, he didn't believe it was the government's job to enforce/chime in on certain matters and such he would vote based on different principles than his personal beliefs, and as such I could support him even though I didn't agree with all of his beliefs)
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by dualstow » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:50 am

Seems kind of old school to me. I grew up with Italians who favored Italian services..small town. Maybe it’s because I’m not observant - my family transitioned from Reform to being 3-day-a-year Jews - but zero of the Jews I know are married to other Jews except for the older generation. (I’m in my forties).

Actually, with intermarriage on the rise, I think a case could be made that Jews really are going to be bred into non-existence, and in college I did meet an observant couple, dating not married, who encouraged me to find a Jewish bride. “You’re doing Hitler’s work!”, say some of the hardcore people who don’t like marrying outside of the faith/race. It’s just a drop in the bucket to the ones I’m related to, or are friends with. I and all of my siblings married Christians or atheists.

Someone tweeted the other day something like, Europe murdered its Jews en masse. The middle eastern countries killed some and kicked the rest of them out. Now they want the sole Jewish state to have an Arab/Muslim majority? No thanks. I pretty much agree with this. It’s a simplification, and although I keep up with my reading I’m tired of repeating the in-depth debate. But it would be inconceivable for me to betray the United States. Are people worried that Andrew Yang would betray the U.S. for China because he has a Chinese face and because Chinese people appear to stick together, marry each other and “favor Chinese businesses?” I’m not worried.

German Jews fought hard for their country in WWI and none of it mattered in the 1930s. They were all considered traitors, period, and blamed for Germany’s troubles. I don’t see how any of the above anecdotes justify questioning the loyalty of American Jews. There are thousands of Aldrich Ames for every Jonathan Pollard. Maybe tens of thousands.

I think it’s unlikely that Americans would ever elect an observant Jew to the presidency, perhaps due in part to these deep-seated suspicions. But if you look at the Left and the fiercest critics of Israel, you will find a ton of Jews: Noam Chomsky, Peter Beinart, too many to name, and countless non-famous ones.

That’s my take on it, anyway.
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Re: Omar accused of treasonous plot with Qatar

Post by sophie » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:13 am

dualstow wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:54 pm
I just think the idea that American Jews are loyal to Israel first and America second, especially those in office, sounds like...well you know what it sounds like.
You're right and you deserve a little more explanation...

In my mind I draw a distinction between Orthodox and non-orthodox. Anytime you have someone with a rigid religion-based outlook running for national office that's a problem, but when you combine it with dual nationality it gets that much more concerning. For example, what would you think of a Catholic bishop running for office?

Ilhan Omar has the same potential issue: dual nationality and an outlook shaped by religion & culture. I'm still waiting to see how her legislative record shapes up - in her favor, she's already broken with tradition by running for office in the first place.
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