The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

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The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Tortoise » Fri May 27, 2011 10:16 pm

On the issue of making ends meet, a popular school of thought seems to be the "leaky bucket" theory of personal finance. It emphasizes the savings one can achieve over time by trimming or eliminating various small expenditures. It can be quite effective, but my main complaint with it is that it requires regular investments of time and energy: constantly hunting for deals, clipping coupons, devising clever DIY hacks, etc. A fun hobby, perhaps, but not for me; I much prefer simplicity.

A different school of thought, one that I see mentioned far less often than the "leaky bucket" theory, is the Pareto Principle--a.k.a. the 80/20 Rule. Applied to personal finance, this approach focuses primarily on reducing one's largest two or three expenditures. The idea is that those two or three expenditures tend to comprise, say, half or more of the total. Therefore, reducing them instead of the dozens of other, much smaller expenditures provides the maximum savings "leverage" for the least amount of effort. My kind of strategy!

The following two actions probably go just as far--if not farther--towards making ends meet than obsessive penny-pinching:
  • Housing (typically the largest expense): Live in a modest home that is comfortably below one's means. Also, live close to work. This reduces one's fuel expenses and provides at least some insulation against future oil price spikes (which will most likely occur).
  • Transportation: Purchase vehicles with cash, not loans. If you don't have the cash, don't buy the vehicle; take public transit until you have the cash. Also, drive practical, reliable vehicles rather than status symbols, and drive them for as many years as possible before replacing them.
Those two items alone--housing and transportation (including car purchases)--eat up about half of most people's paychecks. Talk about heavy hitters! Why pinch pennies and sweat the small stuff when one can instead simply choose a modest home close to work and drive a modest car? That way, if you want to splurge once in a while by eating out at a nice restaurant or going out with friends to have a few drinks, you won't have to feel guilty about it or track it in a spreadsheet to avoid going broke.

On the other hand, I do realize that the house one lives in and the vehicle one drives are two of the most important determinants of one's perceived "social status," and most people are social beings who find it difficult to completely ignore status. Plus, people will often live in homes they can barely afford so that they can send their children to a nice public school away from violent neighborhoods. But on the whole, I get the impression that the main reason people tend to get into debt up to their eyeballs has more to do with social status than with the well-being of their children.

How about all of you? Do we have more "leaky bucket" folks on this forum, or is the "80/20" crowd alive and well?
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by MediumTex » Fri May 27, 2011 10:17 pm

I drive a modest car and live in a modest home relative to my income.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by BearBones » Sat May 28, 2011 7:17 am

Great topic. Food and data are not far behind home and auto for many people. I am shocked at how many people living on modest incomes carry smart phones with data plans and spend >$10/day on unhealthy lunches that they have to drive to purchase every day.
I live in a home that is worth less than my yearly income, use a cell phone with the lowest monthly minutes and no data plan, get my TV off of the airwaves, pack my lunch, and cook my own dinners from healthy, inexpensive primary ingredients (e.g., killer-hot Cuban black beans and rice). I live this way not as much for myself as for my children, since I want them to grow up learning to live on any career that brings them joy, even if it pays poorly.
Another subtle source of savings is taking tender care of your health. Disease and disability rob many of their incomes, replacing it in turn with pain and suffering.
But probably the greatest source of savings is by choosing a good mate, nurturing your marriage, and riding through rough times. One of you wrote about this in a similar thread. I failed in this regard, and it cost me well over than half of my lifetime savings...
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by MediumTex » Sat May 28, 2011 9:46 am

Clive,

For Texas, that IS modest.

Ironically, the Southfork Ranch house is actually not very large.  It's the wide angle shots of it that make it look big.

Housing in general is also very affordale in Texas compared to other places, primarily due to the abundance of land and the proximity to Mexico, which provides a ready supply of low wage construction workers.

***

Seriously, though, this is what I am driving right now:

Image
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Coffee » Sat May 28, 2011 11:15 am

Clive wrote: I was just looking at googlemaps and just randomly zoomed in on Austin

[img]http://images.investorshub.advfn.com/im ... 011/5/28/p[ibyttt.gif[/img]

Those hood horns of yours would be illegal over here - looks like you've already had some hood patchwork work done on the drivers side to repair the dents made by those pedestrians you've already gored :)
I used to live a couple of blocks over from where that picture was taken, off of Congress in the Brown Building.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Coffee » Sat May 28, 2011 11:32 am

BearBones wrote: Great topic. Food and data are not far behind home and auto for many people. I am shocked at how many people living on modest incomes carry smart phones with data plans and spend >$10/day on unhealthy lunches that they have to drive to purchase every day.
I live in a home that is worth less than my yearly income, use a cell phone with the lowest monthly minutes and no data plan, get my TV off of the airwaves, pack my lunch, and cook my own dinners from healthy, inexpensive primary ingredients (e.g., killer-hot Cuban black beans and rice). I live this way not as much for myself as for my children, since I want them to grow up learning to live on any career that brings them joy, even if it pays poorly.
Another subtle source of savings is taking tender care of your health. Disease and disability rob many of their incomes, replacing it in turn with pain and suffering.
But probably the greatest source of savings is by choosing a good mate, nurturing your marriage, and riding through rough times. One of you wrote about this in a similar thread. I failed in this regard, and it cost me well over than half of my lifetime savings...
I feel that your approach is an over-simplification. And with all due respect: It reeks of the resentment of not being more financially successful.  (And I don't mean that as an attack, as I've frequently felt the same way myself, too.)

There is a hidden cost that you pay by living in a poorer neighborhood.  Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting you use leverage and go to the other extreme...  But I can tell you this: With some exceptions, we surround ourselves with others who also represent who we are and what we value.  Successful people go to expensive gyms because it filters out the riff-raff who can't afford it.  It is a barrier to entry-- as are many of the other trappings of success.

Would you hire a professional who drives a piece of shit car? What about a financial planner who lives in the projects?  Do you feel your financial future will be better served hanging out at the golf course or at the pool hall? For most people, the answer is: Go where the money is.

Things that come with a high price tag don't ALWAYS represent true value.  But if you read Ciauldini, you'll understand that: We humans don't have enough time in the day to determine the true value of things.  So, we form snap conclusions about things based on their price tag. Including other humans.

Fair? No.  Accurate? Probably more than 50%.

I try not to judge people or things by their packaging.  But to ignore the packaging can frequently be dangerous.  The guy with the sleeve tattoos who comes to pick up your daughter on a first date may be a great guy, whereas the guy who show up in a nice suit may be a real dick.  But more often than not, I'm willing to wager on the guy wearing the suit.

And that's why it's important to spend money on a good suit.  And a nice car.
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is. "
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by KevinW » Sat May 28, 2011 11:34 am

My default position is to spend nothing on every category.  A case must be made to upgrade from the default position of nothing.  This is more like a "leaky bucket" than 80/20 approach.  However the thought exercise of starting from zero and adding positively feels empowering, whereas starting from the stereotypical American lifestyle and subtracting feels like a sacrifice or punishment.

I suppose this is a variant of Harry Browne's "starting from zero" exercise, which is a variant of the "negative visualization" exercise of the classical Stoic philosophers.

Mathematically it's true that the top 3 line items are most significant, but I think that adopting an all-encompassing frugal mindset makes you more open-minded toward modest choices in the top 3 categories, and helps you appreciate whatever you wind up with.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Tortoise » Sat May 28, 2011 1:46 pm

Clive wrote: Personally we're lucky to have quite a lot of green acreage out the back of ours as we back onto parkland and National Trust kindly mow the lawns and care for the gardens for us :) 

Like having the city out the front, countryside out the back.
That sounds like a mullet house! "Business in the front, party in the back." Outstanding.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Storm » Sat May 28, 2011 2:31 pm

Coffee wrote: I feel that your approach is an over-simplification. And with all due respect: It reeks of the resentment of not being more financially successful.  (And I don't mean that as an attack, as I've frequently felt the same way myself, too.)
I can see where you are coming from, Coffee.  Going too far into the austerity extreme is not good.  HB said you should enjoy your life.  I think there is a middle ground:
  • Don't buy a Lexus or Mercedes, but also don't buy a 15 year old beater that is unsafe and unreliable.  Instead, buy a reasonable car like a 2-3 years old Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
  • Don't buy a McMansion, but don't live in the ghetto either.  Instead rent a house in a nice neighborhood.
For example, where I live the nice neighborhoods are very expensive.  $500K buys you a 50 year old 1400 sq. foot house that is falling apart, but in a good school district.  You need to get into the 750K-900K range before you find anything worth purchasing.  So, you can either make that $5K a month mortgage payment, or you could rent something similar for $2500 a month and put the other $2500 into the PP.  Which person do you think will have more "equity" in 10 years?  Also, I forgot to mention the property taxes are about $10K-15K a year.

You can make a lot of choices about where you live.  But, I have noticed that people make judgments about others based on their rent/own status - when I tell people I rent they question "why would you want to rent when housing always goes up in value?"  There is an expression on their face that indicates they suspect maybe I don't have adequate credit (I do), or maybe I am too far in debt (I'm not) to afford a house.

So Coffee, your points are well taken - social status is important, however, there is a middle ground - nice average car and house rental in a decent school district - that can accomplish both objectives.  As long as you're willing to put up with the inevitable veiled insults at social functions from people that are still drunk on the housing=wealth kool aid.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by BearBones » Sat May 28, 2011 2:36 pm

Coffee wrote: I feel that your approach is an over-simplification. And with all due respect: It reeks of the resentment of not being more financially successful.  (And I don't mean that as an attack, as I've frequently felt the same way myself, too.)
Not really sure of your point, Coffee. I'm 50ish, live in a nice suburban home, and would retire if I did not love my job. If you are assuming that I am recommending living in the projects, I am not. I am just saying that, by living well below your means, you give yourself (and your children) a lot more financial safety and freedom than living on the margin, as so many people do.
Coffee wrote: I try not to judge people or things by their packaging.  But to ignore the packaging can frequently be dangerous.  The guy with the sleeve tattoos who comes to pick up your daughter on a first date may be a great guy, whereas the guy who show up in a nice suit may be a real dick.  But more often than not, I'm willing to wager on the guy wearing the suit.

And that's why it's important to spend money on a good suit.  And a nice car.
A nice house, suit, and car may very important for success among certain professions. But I bet it is the minority. Warren Buffet and John Bogle somehow managed to accumulate a lot of assets while still flying second class, bringing a PB&J sandwich for lunch, and living in a modest home. In fact, either one could ask my daughter out any time, no questions asked. Ha.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Tortoise » Sat May 28, 2011 3:40 pm

BearBones wrote: Another subtle source of savings is taking tender care of your health. Disease and disability rob many of their incomes, replacing it in turn with pain and suffering.
But probably the greatest source of savings is by choosing a good mate, nurturing your marriage, and riding through rough times. One of you wrote about this in a similar thread. I failed in this regard, and it cost me well over than half of my lifetime savings...
Excellent point. I almost forgot what a disproportionately huge effect a poor choice in marriage partner can have on one's financial condition. Thanks for pointing that out.

Coffee's observation that birds of a feather flock together is also well-taken. The people who seem to be the most fastidious caretakers of their property (well-maintained yards, reasonably fresh paint, etc.) seem to be the people who live in conspicuously wealthy neighborhoods. It appears that the values of cleanliness and neatness are highly correlated with wealth. It's too bad that people who live in more modest homes often seem to have no interest in maximizing their home's and yard's beauty the way so many wealthier people do. When I was growing up, my father earned a lot of money but chose to raise us in an unassuming middle-class neighborhood. Despite our modest home and modest cars, my father took tremendous pride and joy in creating by far the most beautiful and well-manicured yard on the block.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by LifestyleFreedom » Sat May 28, 2011 3:51 pm

Tortoise wrote: Do we have more "leaky bucket" folks on this forum, or is the "80/20" crowd alive and well?
I'm in the 80/20 camp, although I stumbled on a resource last year that I wish had existed decades ago.  It takes lifestyle freedom to the next level.

The resource is the book Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker (the related blog and forums are at http://earlyretirementextreme.com/).  The idea is to live so well below your means that you can save and invest 70% of your income.  It won't take long for you to be able to stop working entirely if you choose to do so and have your investment income cover your living expenses.

The ERE philosophy is about empowering your life through wise lifestyle choices without having to spend much money to do so.  Why have a car at all, for example, if you can structure your life not to need one (e.g., live so close to work and places where you shop regularly that you can get around by lower-cost alternatives such as walking, bicycle, or public transportation)?

I've been using many of the ERE techniques for years (discovered independently by myself, which suggests that most of them are common sense), but I see now that there are some decisions I made a long time ago that had I made them differently, I would have a lower cost structure to my life today.  Live and learn.  At least I can improve my situation going forward.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Tortoise » Sat May 28, 2011 4:07 pm

LifestyleFreedom wrote: The ERE philosophy is about empowering your life through wise lifestyle choices without having to spend much money to do so.  Why have a car at all, for example, if you can structure your life not to need one (e.g., live so close to work and places where you shop regularly that you can get around by lower-cost alternatives such as walking, bicycle, or public transportation)?
Interesting. This reminds me of one of my favorite books, Walden by Henry David Thoreau. In the first chapter, entitled "Economy," Thoreau explains in detail how he was able to live a remarkably free and soul-satisfying existence on a shoestring budget: "For more than five years I maintained myself thus solely by the labor of my hands, and I found, that by working about six weeks in a year, I could meet all the expenses of living. The whole of my winters, as well as most of my summers, I had free and clear for study."

And that was way back in the mid-1800s. Imagine how much easier it should be today to live an even freer and more satisfying existence than Thoreau's at Walden Pond, by working even less than six weeks per year!
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by LifestyleFreedom » Sat May 28, 2011 6:03 pm

I'm not into rock climbing myself.  But here are a couple of guys ("working" as part-time freelancers) who figured out how to get paid well for having fun.

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/12/ ... e-job.html
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by dualstow » Sat May 28, 2011 8:34 pm

Tortoise wrote: Those two items alone--housing and transportation (including car purchases)--eat up about half of most people's paychecks. Talk about heavy hitters! Why pinch pennies and sweat the small stuff when one can instead simply choose a modest home close to work and drive a modest car? That way, if you want to splurge once in a while by eating out at a nice restaurant or going out with friends to have a few drinks, you won't have to feel guilty about it or track it in a spreadsheet to avoid going broke.
I like this. I live in a very small townhouse and don't own a car. The missus I do go out to dinner often, and we almost always go on foot. The worst is the rise in our real estate taxes, but of course that's not under our control.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by gizmo_rat » Mon May 30, 2011 4:49 am

In all fairness, I can think of very few people I've met who've not espoused the 80/20 school of personal finance. However generalising from what people say to what people do is a different matter.

Most decisions involving money don't actually seem to be rational, and when you do your best and do the "right thing" self doubt / herd mentality / peer group pressure tends to pull you back into living outside your means... Even if it's just for a nice suit and car. 

BTW Sort of want some of those cow horns for my work ride.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by 6 Iron » Mon May 30, 2011 8:33 pm

gizmo_rat wrote: Image

I am all for safety on a bike, but knee pads?
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Coffee » Tue May 31, 2011 7:34 am

6 Iron wrote:
gizmo_rat wrote: Image

I am all for safety on a bike, but knee pads?
Oh, sorry-- that's for the office.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by MediumTex » Tue May 31, 2011 7:53 am

Coffee wrote:
6 Iron wrote:
gizmo_rat wrote: Image

I am all for safety on a bike, but knee pads?
Oh, sorry-- that's for the office.
I wonder what type of office it is where you wear shorts with sport coats.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by gizmo_rat » Tue May 31, 2011 8:42 am

Coffee wrote: Oh, sorry-- that's for the office.
Most consultants in London wear them, I think chaps might do in a pinch.
MediumTex wrote: I wonder what type of office it is where you wear shorts with sport coats.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by AdamA » Tue May 31, 2011 8:49 am

LifestyleFreedom wrote: The idea is to live so well below your means that you can save and invest 70% of your income.  It won't take long for you to be able to stop working entirely if you choose to do so and have your investment income cover your living expenses.
I read this book too, and I loved it. 

Have you been able to save enough money to use investment income to cover your living expenses? 

Do you bother with a Roth IRA or a 401K?
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by Lone Wolf » Tue May 31, 2011 9:15 am

LifestyleFreedom wrote: The resource is the book Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker (the related blog and forums are at http://earlyretirementextreme.com/).  The idea is to live so well below your means that you can save and invest 70% of your income.  It won't take long for you to be able to stop working entirely if you choose to do so and have your investment income cover your living expenses.
Yeah, I really enjoying "peeking in" on this community from time to time.  I'm not personally interested in that level of austerity but I think their philosophy is a great reminder of how important it is to prioritize your life in a way that makes you happy.  Time is our only non-renewable resource and we're always spending it, like it or not.

Tortoise's comparison to Thoreau is right on the money.  That's what came to mind for me as well.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by MediumTex » Tue May 31, 2011 10:20 am

Lone Wolf wrote:
LifestyleFreedom wrote: The resource is the book Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker (the related blog and forums are at http://earlyretirementextreme.com/).  The idea is to live so well below your means that you can save and invest 70% of your income.  It won't take long for you to be able to stop working entirely if you choose to do so and have your investment income cover your living expenses.
Yeah, I really enjoying "peeking in" on this community from time to time.  I'm not personally interested in that level of austerity but I think their philosophy is a great reminder of how important it is to prioritize your life in a way that makes you happy.  Time is our only non-renewable resource and we're always spending it, like it or not.

Tortoise's comparison to Thoreau is right on the money.  That's what came to mind for me as well.
When I discuss these topics with my wife (i.e., living below our means, seeking freedom from a consumption based lifestyles, etc.), I always turn to the TV set and remind her that what we are talking about is extremely upsetting to the TV, and the TV will do everything in its power to prevent us from acting on any of these ideas.

In so many ways, the vision from 1984 has arrived, it's just far more subtle and seemingly comfortable than Orwell imagined it would be.

We are in a state of perpetual war with a vaguely defined set of enemies.

We do have these monitors in virtually every room of our homes that influence us in profound ways.

We have to a large degree destroyed history, primarily through simply losing interest in it.

I think we have also worked a little Brave New World into the picture as well, with "Dancing With the Stars" and "American Idol" taking the place of Soma.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by KevinW » Tue May 31, 2011 4:10 pm

MediumTex wrote: We do have these monitors in virtually every room of our homes that influence us in profound ways.
I'm reminded of 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 every time I see TVs in public, pedestrians staring at smartphones, and DVD players in SUVs.  A lot of people seem to be looking at an LCD, delivering preprogrammed media, every waking moment of their life.
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Re: The 80/20 Rule in Personal Finance

Post by MediumTex » Tue May 31, 2011 4:43 pm

KevinW wrote:
MediumTex wrote: We do have these monitors in virtually every room of our homes that influence us in profound ways.
I'm reminded of 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 every time I see TVs in public, pedestrians staring at smartphones, and DVD players in SUVs.  A lot of people seem to be looking at an LCD, delivering preprogrammed media, every waking moment of their life.
The movie They Live is an outstanding addition to this library.

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