Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:01 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:51 am
Mountaineer, this is a worthwhile contribution.

From your perspective, is there a particular church/state arrangement (current or historical) which exemplifies the ideals which you / Luther advocate?

In particular, I'm curious if you view the arrangement in the USA as the ideal, or is your ideal what exists or existed in one of the various Nordic countries.

(In this case, it's not a Socratic question.)
Based on my experience of living in a few different states and towns in the USA and traveling to a few places in Europe, the USA is "good enough" as evidenced by the number of people who try to get into the country vs. those who want to get out; definitely the USA is not ideal but I doubt that any country or municipality on earth, past or present, is or was. Anywhere that sinful people live is not ideal ... and we are all sinners. I am greatly looking forward to living in that ideal "new heaven and earth" in the perfect presence of God. ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:10 pm

The intent of my question was to inquire from a scriptural/theological/doctrinal perspective. I'm interested to know which arrangement comes closest to your understanding or Luther's understanding of your beliefs.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:31 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:10 pm
The intent of my question was to inquire from a scriptural/theological/doctrinal perspective. I'm interested to know which arrangement comes closest to your understanding or Luther's understanding of your beliefs.
Murphy, not to evade your question, but I really don't know. I'm not that familar with all the various countries/states/cities of the world to have an informed opinion of the various laws and living conditions. I can only say that the places I've lived in the USA are "good enough". I've so far been free to practice my religion without being unduly hassled and have always lived in relatively "safe" areas and had good neighbors.

I think from a scriptural/theological/doctrinal understanding, freedom is heavily inside ones head. I am free to worship God regardless of whether I'm roaming around on the wide open prairie or locked in a jail cell; real freedom (as opposed to liberty) cannot be taken away from me by anyone. The book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl is a good explanation of that perspective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl
Material liberty in the kingdom of the left is another matter; thus my comments about living in places that are so far "good enough".
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:13 am

A blessed Good Friday to my PP Forum friends - Christ is Crucified, it is finished.

... Mountaineer

From last year. It was inspired by a sermon by Forde, published in The Bride of Christ that I read some 20-25 years ago. I wish I would have saved that issue. Don Kirchner

“It is finished,” our Lord cried. A single word in the original Greek: τετέλεσται, "tetelesthai."

In his hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God," Luther states that one little word will fell Satan, The Accuser. But Luther never actually told us what the one little word was. I always assumed that it was the single Greek word for “It is written,” i.e., γέγραπται, "gegraptai," Jesus’ response to Satan in His temptation in the wilderness.

In contemplating Good Friday and what Jesus accomplished, however, I am no longer so convinced. On this Good Friday, I would argue that the one little word that fells Satan is the single Greek word for “It is finished," i.e., τετέλεσται, “Tetelesthai!”

This word sounded loudly that afternoon in the silence that had fallen on Calvary. “Tetelesthai!” Jesus proclaimed, “It is finished!” This was no whimper of resignation, no acknowledgment of defeat. This was a cry of victory. "Tetelesthai!" means the goal has been reached, all is completion, the finish line crossed, the victory won! And the perfect tense of this Greek verb means that the accomplishment is continuing, once and for all. There will be no need to revisit the work. Jesus declares that everything is now completed, it stands finished, forever.

"Tetelesthai!" "It is finished!" This is the word Satan dreads. He loves to tempt us to sin, and then, when we’ve fallen, to throw our sins back in our faces. But when The Accuser attacks and your conscience strikes you, especially then, learn to take comfort in this word, “Tetelesthai!”

It is finished. Christ has done it all. “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). And because you are baptized, you are in Christ, united in his death, in his accomplished mission. You, too, are finished.

But there's more! Just wait until Sunday! For now, on this Good Friday, rest assured that The Evil One can no longer accuse you. One little word fells him."Tetelesthai!" for you are forgiven of all your sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:03 pm

Status update on followers of Luther.

https://twitter.com/Christianus47/statu ... dfAAQ&s=19
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:28 pm

"not my kind of Lutheran"



Lol

Kind of like ...not my flavor of ice cream

More seriously...Have the true lutherans issued any excommunications against the fakers? Issued any anathema's? That would be fun to read; I'm interested particularly in their source of authority, which they exercise over the lutherans who they presumably reject fellowship with.


Ps. I saw a Lutheran Missouri synod Minister a few months ago, well-dressed, in Black... With a Roman collar!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:57 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:40 pm
I don't think the Lutherans have anyone like this guy
Brilliant, Desert! Except that Murphy doesn't believe that guy is the Pope. But he's still totally Catholic.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:04 pm

To be pope of the Catholic church, you have to be Catholic.

"Francis" is not, and never was, pope of the Catholic Church. He has celebrated Martin Luther; that should be a big tip off.

Kudos to Xan... Good memory.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:06 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:28 pm
"not my kind of Lutheran"



Lol

Kind of like ...not my flavor of ice cream

More seriously...Have the true lutherans issued any excommunications against the fakers? Issued any anathema's? That would be fun to read; I'm interested particularly in their source of authority, which they exercise over the lutherans who they presumably reject fellowship with.


Ps. I saw a Lutheran Missouri synod Minister a few months ago, well-dressed, in Black... With a Roman collar!
There are multiple church bodies in the country that claim the name "Lutheran" but are unaffiliated with each other. The largest is the ELCA, which includes some relatively faithful congregations as well as a lot of craziness. Your question would well apply to the faithful in the ELCA.

The second-largest, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, in the "kind of Lutheran" from the video. The LCMS is not in communion with the ELCA, so the ELCA and LCMS are already as excommunicated from each other as they can get. LCMS pastors normally wear clerical collars, usually in black.

As for authority, we don't consider not being in communion with another group as an exercise in authority, so much as one of discernment. We believe that unity in doctrine comes before unity in the Supper, so we don't share the Supper with those who aren't members of the LCMS or of another body with which we are in altar fellowship. There is a worldwide association of confessional Lutherans of which the LCMS is a member, as well as a worldwide association of, let's say, more progressive Lutherans of which the ELCA is a member.

I think a key difference is that we don't deny that other churches have the true Supper. We believe that the Romans and the Eastern Orthodox do, for example. We still don't commune with them "horizontally", that is, side-by-side at the altar, but we do believe that we commune with them "vertically", as we all share the same Supper.

The ELCA some years ago declared alter fellowship with the Episcopal Church, which denies the Real Presence of Christ in the Supper, and so most LCMS opinion (I think) is that the ELCA no longer has that Presence.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:12 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:04 pm
To be pope of the Catholic church, you have to be Catholic.

"Francis" is not, and never was, pope of the Catholic Church. He has celebrated Martin Luther; that should be a big tip off.

Kudos to Xan... Good memory.

Right, Benedict XVI is Murphy's man:

Pope Benedict XVI: 'Luther Was Right'

Pope [Benedict] praised Martin Luther in landmark visit

Benedict XVI had three COVID-19 vaccine doses ‘out of conviction’


As for the question of what to do when the Pope starts teaching heresy, that was asked and answered in the 16th century. There's room in a confessional Lutheran church for you, Murphy! Other folks have to go father back to find a "real" Pope they like. It's fairly strained...
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:37 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:30 pm
Okay, sarcasm off (temporarily, at least).

Xan, if the LCMS somehow disappeared, which denomination would you choose? No need to answer if there isn't a "2nd place," I'm just curious.
That's an interesting question, and some folks who move countries for example end up in such a situation. (I'm assuming you really mean if there isn't a confessional Lutheran church body available.)

It might be Eastern Orthodoxy.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:42 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:22 pm
Wait, we don't even agree on who the freakin' pope is??

This is too perfect. I'm going to choose my own pope now too. Probably someone like Mike Tyson, just for fun.

"Everybody's got a plan, until they get punched in the face."
- His holiness, Mike Tyson

I do appreciate that Benedict had the smarts and decency to resign due to old age. I wish a few more leaders would get on board with that.
Benedict is Pope; he was forced out under duress... Therefore, attempted resignation invalid.

More specifically, he never renounce the munus, only ministerium. Invalid.

You can listen to Dr Mazza if you would like more details.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:52 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:42 pm
Desert wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:22 pm
Wait, we don't even agree on who the freakin' pope is??

This is too perfect. I'm going to choose my own pope now too. Probably someone like Mike Tyson, just for fun.

"Everybody's got a plan, until they get punched in the face."
- His holiness, Mike Tyson

I do appreciate that Benedict had the smarts and decency to resign due to old age. I wish a few more leaders would get on board with that.
Benedict is Pope; he was forced out under duress... Therefore, attempted resignation invalid.

More specifically, he never renounce the munus, only ministerium. Invalid.

You can listen to Dr Mazza if you would like more details.
So, given that the Catholic church is now run by a guy who isn't the Pope, don't you need to go join a church run by Benedict XVI?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:08 pm

As you may be aware, there have been numerous anti popes in the history of the church. At least one of those was backed by a someone who became a canonized Saint. I seem to recall there is at least one anti-pope who is also a canonized Saint.

But thank you for your concern Xan.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:11 am

Good devotion today; interesting reference to Animal Farm (1945); seems like things today aren't much different:

Colossians 1:16-20 - By Him [Jesus] all things were created ... all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, so that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.

This devotion pairs with this weekend's Lutheran Hour sermon, which can be found at lutheranhour.org.

"All God's Creatures Got a Place in the Choir," said a once-popular children's song, "some sing low, some sing higher. Some sing out loud on a telephone wire. Some just clap their hands, or paws, or anything they got now." The song reflects the truth in our reading—that all creation in all its variety, with every distinct creature, each one of them, endowed with unique individuality, yet also united in a common origin with a common purpose—every one created to sing glory to the One who created them. And if all creation is a choir, Colossians 1 would have us see Jesus as our Creator, our Savior, and our Director.

Part of following Jesus means losing faith in every merely human director. Others try to direct us. But when some mere creature tries to take the burden of directing all the other creatures, this typically turns them into a tyrant, into another Napoleon. It's no accident that the tyrant in George Orwell's book, Animal Farm , is a pig named Napoleon. In the story, the pigs, led by Napoleon, direct a revolution. Then they create new rules for a new harmony on the farm. Their greatest commandment is "All Animals Are Equal." But their harmony quickly turns to discord. Napoleon and his pigs decide that their special burden of directing the masses warrants special privileges, which includes consuming all of the cows' milk and all of the farm's apples. Napoleon directs his spokes-pig to explain this to the others, "We pigs are brainworkers," he says. "Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink milk and eat those apples." Then Napoleon composes an amendment to the greatest commandment: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Orwell's cynical parable about human nature and human society reminds us how quickly the oppressed become the oppressor and how the line between human and pig is sometimes blurred. It helps us lose faith in merely human directors. So, we turn, not to cynicism, but to Jesus. Read and listen to His biographies in the New Testament—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus is no Napoleon. He says, "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you [take My direction upon you] and learn from Me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, because My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30).

Jesus came, not to make slaves. And He didn't come to make cynics, either. He came to give His life as a ransom, the Creator for the sake of His creatures, the Director for His choir, the Son and the Spirit of the Father, for the sake of His children. Jesus came, one for all, so that all may be one (see John 17:20-23).
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:33 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:11 am

Good devotion today; interesting reference to Animal Farm (1945); seems like things today aren't much different:

Colossians 1:16-20 - By Him [Jesus] all things were created ... all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, so that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.

This devotion pairs with this weekend's Lutheran Hour sermon, which can be found at lutheranhour.org.

"All God's Creatures Got a Place in the Choir," said a once-popular children's song, "some sing low, some sing higher. Some sing out loud on a telephone wire. Some just clap their hands, or paws, or anything they got now." The song reflects the truth in our reading—that all creation in all its variety, with every distinct creature, each one of them, endowed with unique individuality, yet also united in a common origin with a common purpose—every one created to sing glory to the One who created them. And if all creation is a choir, Colossians 1 would have us see Jesus as our Creator, our Savior, and our Director.

Part of following Jesus means losing faith in every merely human director. Others try to direct us. But when some mere creature tries to take the burden of directing all the other creatures, this typically turns them into a tyrant, into another Napoleon. It's no accident that the tyrant in George Orwell's book, Animal Farm , is a pig named Napoleon. In the story, the pigs, led by Napoleon, direct a revolution. Then they create new rules for a new harmony on the farm. Their greatest commandment is "All Animals Are Equal." But their harmony quickly turns to discord. Napoleon and his pigs decide that their special burden of directing the masses warrants special privileges, which includes consuming all of the cows' milk and all of the farm's apples. Napoleon directs his spokes-pig to explain this to the others, "We pigs are brainworkers," he says. "Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink milk and eat those apples." Then Napoleon composes an amendment to the greatest commandment: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Orwell's cynical parable about human nature and human society reminds us how quickly the oppressed become the oppressor and how the line between human and pig is sometimes blurred. It helps us lose faith in merely human directors. So, we turn, not to cynicism, but to Jesus. Read and listen to His biographies in the New Testament—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus is no Napoleon. He says, "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you [take My direction upon you] and learn from Me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, because My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30).

Jesus came, not to make slaves. And He didn't come to make cynics, either. He came to give His life as a ransom, the Creator for the sake of His creatures, the Director for His choir, the Son and the Spirit of the Father, for the sake of His children. Jesus came, one for all, so that all may be one (see John 17:20-23).


I think I have read that excellent book three times and that is the one line that I ALWAYS remember from it.

The first time I read the book I was heavily involved in food cooperatives (nearly 50 years ago) where all were supposed to be equal. Reading the book then was a parallel between what was going on in the book to what I was seeing in food cooperatives with all the supposed equality. After five years of being intensely involved in food cooperatives I left them and I knew I'd found my home in a private, for-profit food production business.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:40 am

This would easily fit in the mass shooting and abortion threads too. Same root causes as described below 500 years ago.

Quotation from Johann Spangenberg (1484–1530, pastor in Nordhausen and Superintendent in Mansfeld).

“The world is the devil’s realm, paradise, and hideaway. (German: Lusthaus, referring to a summer home or castle). As the devil is the avowed enemy of God and all Christians, he treats them in the worst and most harmful way possible. What then is in the world is also the enemy of God and all Christians. In the world there is wisdom, power, outward holiness and hypocrisy, false teaching, seduction, heresy, error, factions and sects, which all rage against Christ. Christ gives the world the label “open grave and a house of lies.” He hangs that sign over its door, John 8:44. As long as we are in the world, we must remind ourselves that we are in an inn in which the proprietor is a scoundrel, a murderer, and a liar. For in this hotel of the devil, there is nothing else but murder and lying. That is the way he conducts his business, the way he runs his establishment. Whoever is his employee must help him to do this. Whoever is his guest must expect this sort of thing. Therefore Cyprian said, “We stand here daily under the devil’s weapons, which chop and swing at us, as in a forest where you see the lash of the ax. He is always trying to chop the Christians to the ground.” The dangers are large and varied. The way is slippery. The enemies are tricky and powerful. We are weak and carry our treasure in earthen vessels, 2 Cor 4:7. We stand in the midst of great danger and terror on all sides.”
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:06 am

Daily Devotions from Lutheran Hour Ministries

"Play the Sunset"
July 1, 2022
Ecclesiastes 2:25-26 - For apart from Him [God] who can eat or who can have enjoyment? For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God.

This devotion pairs with this weekend's Lutheran Hour sermon, which can be found at lutheranhour.org.

Gertrude Lang wears her red hair in pig tails and practices her clarinet till her lips swell up. Gertrude is a minor character in the 1995 film, Mr. Holland's Opus . She's a member of Mr. Holland's band and has been practicing the clarinet for three years, negotiating with it to get the right notes, but the thing still squeaks like rusty brakes on a second-hand ten-speed. And the prospect of failure is too much for her. Her siblings are on full-ride scholarships. Her mother is a talented artist. And her father, her father has the most beautiful singing voice. And she's trying to negotiate a place for herself. She's got her self-worth wrapped up in how well she performs, and because she's not performing well, she's beginning to believe that she's worthless. But Mr. Holland won't give up on her.

King Solomon, traditionally taken as the speaker of the book of Ecclesiastes, tells us how he had practiced his part, negotiating to get the right notes. There were moments when he found the melody, but his mortality still groaned like a dying animal. And we hear him waver back and forth between feelings of favor and vapor. He shows us that if we try to negotiate with mortal life it will always fail us. Mortal life cannot give you what you want because what you want is infinite. And this life is finite.

You desire what is infinite because, as Ecclesiastes says, God has put eternity into your heart (see Ecclesiastes 3:11). You have a God-sized hole in your heart and only God can fill it. And you can't negotiate with God, either, because God needs nothing you have and has everything you need. But, before you or any other human being ever gave a thought to negotiating, God was already giving. It was only when the devil convinced us to negotiate for more that we fell into sin (see Genesis 3:4). And to us stubbornly self-sufficient negotiators, Solomon says, God has given the fruitless task of heaping up only to hand it over to the "one who pleases God." And who is the one who pleases God? Only One: God's beloved Son, Jesus (see Matthew 3:17). And Jesus, like His Father, is not a negotiator. He is a giver. And on the cross and in His resurrection, there He is: God, in the flesh, giving Himself for you.

So, what if we stopped seeing life as negotiation? That's what Mr. Holland did for the red-headed Gertrude Lang. She was ready to quit. So, he asks her, "Gertrude, when you see yourself, what do you like best about what you see?" She says, "My hair." "Why?" he says. She answers, "My father says it reminds him of the sunset." Mr. Holland gestures towards her clarinet: "Play the sunset," he says. That is, play from the place where you know you're loved. Now Gertrude didn't become a virtuoso clarinetist overnight, after this conversation. She still had to negotiate to get the right notes. But she stopped using music to negotiate her value. And she started receiving it like the gift it is—a gift she cherished through long hours of practice, a gift she shared with others, a gift that was an expression of her father's voice speaking love for her. And Jesus promises even more for us, for everyone who will trust in Him and be taught by Him. He promises life, true life—not a deal won by negotiation, but a gift given in love.

WE PRAY: Dear Father, as we learn to play our part, let it be that what we like best about ourselves, is that You think we we're worth dying for, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, Amen.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Jack Jones » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:52 am

In Jesus’ time, belief in a God or Gods was widespread. When I read his teachings, it seems like a belief in God was a foregone conclusion.

Today, belief in God is not as widespread. Jesus’ teachings, although they may have great significance, fall on deaf ears because we don’t know God anymore. We lack the context that the apostles shared with Jesus.

How can an atheist approach Jesus’ teachings in this day and age? It seems to me that one must first find God somehow, and only then will Jesus’ teachings be scrutable.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by joypog » Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:44 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:52 am
How can an atheist approach Jesus’ teachings in this day and age? It seems to me that one must first find God somehow, and only then will Jesus’ teachings be scrutable.
Most non-believers would be drawn to Jesus's Sermon on the Mount (especially the beatitudes).

The weird part is the rest of the cosmology. Try retelling Bible stories to a someone who is completely unfamiliar with the mythology. Noah's Ark. Easter. Christmas. (let's not get into the stories of David or Lot). I occasionally try with my kids on the holidays...they find it every bit as alien as Greek Myths or African folk tales.

An atheist will get over the weirdness and accept the heart of the teachings if he or she finds the Christian life appealing. Conversion does not happen in mass movements, but in one heart at a time. But how will Christians and non-Christians cross paths when lines have been so sharply drawn?

Christendom has besmirched itself with their whole hearted adoption of the golden calf of right wing politics. They've gleefully embraced an obvious reprobate and adopted his spiteful demeanor.

For example my wife is now completely anti-christian due to the hijinx of the past five years. I can't blame her. I'm non-religious but generally ecumenical, but how can I argue there is any benefit for my children to meet such angry people?

Evangelicals made Esau's bargain. They abandoned the fruits of the spirit for three supreme court justices. I hope they enjoy their porridge.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
1/n weirdo. US-TSM, US-SCV, Intl-SCV, LTT, STT, GLD (+ a little in MF)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:58 am

joypog wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:44 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:52 am

How can an atheist approach Jesus’ teachings in this day and age? It seems to me that one must first find God somehow, and only then will Jesus’ teachings be scrutable.

Most non-believers would be drawn to Jesus's Sermon on the Mount (especially the beatitudes).

The weird part is the rest of the cosmology. Try retelling Bible stories to a someone who is completely unfamiliar with the mythology. Noah's Ark. Easter. Christmas. (let's not get into the stories of David or Lot). I occasionally try with my kids on the holidays...they find it every bit as alien as Greek Myths or African folk tales.

An atheist will get over the weirdness and accept the heart of the teachings if he or she finds the Christian life appealing. Conversion does not happen in mass movements, but in one heart at a time. But how will Christians and non-Christians cross paths when lines have been so sharply drawn?

Christendom has besmirched itself with their whole hearted adoption of the golden calf of right wing politics. They've gleefully embraced an obvious reprobate and adopted his spiteful demeanor.

For example my wife is now completely anti-christian due to the hijinx of the past five years. I can't blame her. I'm non-religious but generally ecumenical, but how can I argue there is any benefit for my children to meet such angry people?

Evangelicals made Esau's bargain. They abandoned the fruits of the spirit for three supreme court justices. I hope they enjoy their porridge.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


Totally agree. In my lifetime the Christian "witness" was never as severely damaged as it has been during the Trump era.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by joypog » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:46 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:52 am
In Jesus’ time, belief in a God or Gods was widespread. When I read his teachings, it seems like a belief in God was a foregone conclusion.

Today, belief in God is not as widespread. Jesus’ teachings, although they may have great significance, fall on deaf ears because we don’t know God anymore. We lack the context that the apostles shared with Jesus.
BTW we shouldn't downplay how strange Christianity must have been its own time.

You got a carpenter from a backwater town running around with an apocalyptic message. Would you let your son (or daughter!) sell everything he owned to follow Bob of Local 145 from Beaumont Texas? Are those miracles actually real? BTW, your pastor thinks he's seditious and maybe a bit heretical. Plus he pals around with reformed hookers (snicker) and is bankrolled by "repentant" corrupt politicians.

Even more-so from the pagan perspective. Bob's says there's only one all powerful god. (Yeah, so powerful to lead this minority group to start a bunch of failed rebellions in the eastern backwaters of the empire). And he hints that he's the son of that single god?

Oh, btw, Bob was executed for high crimes at the behest of his own people. But his adherents claim Bob came back from the dead three days later, only to disappear a couple months later. But wait, they say he's coming back any time now.

But in the meantime, let's commemorate him by eating his body and drinking his blood in the form of crackers and wine.

And let's not get into that half-blind hardliner Saul who spent his spare time preaching between making belts and pissing off locals.

The line between a great prophet and a cult can look pretty thin.
1/n weirdo. US-TSM, US-SCV, Intl-SCV, LTT, STT, GLD (+ a little in MF)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Jack Jones » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:11 pm

I don’t know if all that was practiced at the time of Jesus. Centuries of cruft have accumulated since he walked the earth.

The difference between a great prophet and a cult is the impact. Jesus had and continues to have a large impact on the world. Time is a great filter.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by joypog » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:54 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:11 pm
I don’t know if all that was practiced at the time of Jesus. Centuries of cruft have accumulated since he walked the earth.

The difference between a great prophet and a cult is the impact. Jesus had and continues to have a large impact on the world. Time is a great filter.
I agree. That's why I take all the great religions seriously.
1/n weirdo. US-TSM, US-SCV, Intl-SCV, LTT, STT, GLD (+ a little in MF)
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