Figuring Out Religion

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:57 pm

Okay, what God was that exactly then?

[/quote]

God.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:11 pm

pp4me wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:05 pm

How do you deal with the fact there is no real evidence …..

Okay, what God was that exactly then?
To address your concerns, God, always was, always is, and always will be.

You might want to do some reading of JWM, but only if you are willing to open your mind.

http://jwm.christendom.co.uk/

https://www.laniertheologicallibrary.or ... ontgomery/
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:14 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:11 pm
You might want to do some reading of JWM, but only if you are willing to open your mind.
That's rich Mounatineer.

"Oh the gift that God could give us, to see ourselves as others see us.” - Robert Burns.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:17 am

pp4me wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:14 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:11 pm
You might want to do some reading of JWM, but only if you are willing to open your mind.
That's rich Mounatineer.

"Oh the gift that God could give us, to see ourselves as others see us.” - Robert Burns.
Well now, that is certainly an 8th commandment (put the best construction on things, per Luther) endorsement. Perhaps if you read Montgomery's bio you might, just might, come to understand that his writing is not at the 6th grade level. Thus the comment about being willing to open your mind.

"Oh the gift that God could give us, to see ourselves as others see us.” - Robert Burns. Great quote, thanks. Mirrors, a wonderful gift from God, are helpful in this respect.

…Mountaineer

John Warwick Montgomery
To use C. S. Lewis's words, John Warwick Montgomery was brought over the threshold of Christian faith "kicking and struggling."

The year was 1949. The place, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York. Herman John Eckelmann, a persistent engineering student succeeded in goading Montgomery into religious discussions. Montgomery, a philosophy major disinterested in religion, found himself forced to consider seriously the claims of Jesus Christ in the New Testament in order to preserve his intellectual integrity. After no mean struggle he acknowledged his rebellion against God, asking His forgiveness.

Today, he is considered by many to be the foremost living apologist for biblical Christianity.

A renaissance scholar with a flair for controversy, he lives in France, England and the United States. His international activities have brought him into personal contact with some of the most exciting events of our time: not only was he in China In June 1989, but he was In Fiji during its 1987 bloodless revolution, was involved in assisting East Germans to escape during the time of the Berlin Wall, and was in Paris during the 'days of May' 1968.

He is an ordained Lutheran clergyman, an English barrister, and is admitted to practise as a lawyer before the Supreme Court of the United States and inscrit au Barreau de Paris, France. He obtained acquittals for the 'Athens 3' missionaries on charges of proselytism at the Greek Court of Appeals in 1986 and won the leading religious liberty cases of Larissis v. Greece and Bessarabian Orthodox Church v. Moldova before the European Court of Human Rights.

Dr. Montgomery is the author or editor of more than sixty books in six languages. He holds eleven earned degrees, including a Master of Philosophy in Law from the University of Essex, England, A Ph.D. from the University of Chicago, a Doctorate in Protestant Theology from the University of Strasbourg, France, and a higher doctorate in law (the LL.D.) from Cardiff University, Wales. He is currently the Director of the International Academy of Apologetics, Evangelism and Human Rights held in Strasbourg, France and additionally serves actively as Professor-At-Large for 1517.

Find out more at: www.1517.org
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:23 pm

pp4me wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:05 pm
murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:07 pm
A. The true religion was preserved from Adam till the coming of Christ by the patriarchs, prophets and other holy men whom God appointed and inspired to teach His Will and Revelations to the people, and to remind them of the promised Redeemer.
How do you deal with the fact there is no real evidence that the "parriarchs, prophets, and other holy men" in the Bible ever even existed? For sure, somebody told those stories in the Bible (and did it brilliantly IMHO or they wouldn't be so powerful) but even though archaeologists and others have been searching for years for the evidence they have found nothing except for now and then a previously unknown city or people named in the Bible that actually existed. How that proves anything I don't know. That makes it no more true than so many movies "based on a true story" that are total fabrications.
Hopefully the following will shed some light...

Stepping back a little bit from your question, I point out that the existence of God is known to humanity by reason alone, outside of Revelation. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... nce-of-god

Moving in a little closer, I begin by pointing out that events of the Old testament were preparing the way for the arrival of Christ. God did not arrive unannounced. Prophecies of the Old testament described in remarkable detail specific aspects of Christ and his life events. However, the events and people of the Old testament are not the hinge of Christian belief. The Old testament is nowhere near as important as the New. I will acknowledge that I've never read the Old testament from cover to cover, so I certainly don't consider myself as familiar with it as the New.

Having said that, there is physical evidence supporting the scriptures. I saw a YouTube video of a scientist showing/explaining the physical evidence of the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, when fire rained down from the sky. The location of Abraham's tomb is known (cave of the patriarchs). A flood which covers the entire Earth has not occurred since the time of Noah. There was a temple at Jerusalem.

More importantly, there is physical evidence corroborating the gospel accounts. There is no tomb which contains the remains of Christ. (For he ascended into heaven.) Same thing for the Virgin Mary (she was assumed into heaven). The shroud of Turin has been studied extensively. The Temple in Jerusalem was leveled as Jesus said it would be.

In regards to the early church, the apostles and many of the disciples were put to death for persevering in their belief as eye-witnesses of Jesus. It makes no sense for someone creating a myth to sacrifice their life for it. Yes to whether Jesus existed, even his enemies acknowledge that fact.

These are some initial thoughts which occur to me in response to your questions.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14228
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by dualstow » Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:36 pm

Couldn’t all of the above simply fall under vaticinium ex eventu?
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by pp4me » Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:24 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:17 am
Well now, that is certainly an 8th commandment (put the best construction on things, per Luther) endorsement. Perhaps if you read Montgomery's bio you might, just might, come to understand that his writing is not at the 6th grade level. Thus the comment about being willing to open your mind.
I cannot think of any comeback to your accusation that my thinking is at the 6th grade level except to say Fuck You and the white horse you rode in on. So there you have it.

That you would masquerade yourself as an open-minded person trying to Figure Out Religion in this thread is really laughable.

Have you ever actually helped to convert anyone to Christ? I did. Many times. I could actually give you pointers on how to do it asshole.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:01 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:36 pm
Couldn’t all of the above simply fall under vaticinium ex eventu?
Do you have any evidence to suggest this is the case?

The books of the Old testament are common to today's Jews, who recognize it as the Hebrew Bible. The passages which prophesy the Messiah in the Old testament are recognized as such by Christians today. At the same time, today's Jews reject that these passages refer to Jesus. In fact, the unifying element of all who hold a Jewish belief today reject that Jesus is the Christ. So, I conclude that you have a specious theory that the books written prior to the time of Jesus are somehow forgeries written by Jesus' disciples.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14228
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by dualstow » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:25 pm

Forgeries? No. I’m saying couldn’t you just be reading any portent of Jesus into the old testament. Like, people say there is some astronomical event that really happened when Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. But maybe the event happened, and the story came later.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:01 am

Okay, thanks for clarifying. My understanding is that there are far too many, and far too specific, prophecies from the Old testament. I found this article...https://www.catholicbible101.com/otprop ... fjesus.htm

Virgin birth
Born in Bethlehem
Betrayed for 30 shekels
For my garment they cast lots
Riding an donkey into Jerusalem

The article doesn't try to be comprehensive, I'm surprised it doesn't mention " they looked upon him whom they have pierced".... Anyway, it's a starting point.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:11 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:57 pm
Our perspective:

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=C&word=CHURCH

Church.
1. The word “church” is commonly applied to the whole number of true believers, the communion of saints, the invisible ch. of Christ; any particular denomination of Christian people; particular congs. of any Christian denomination; the religious establishment of any particular nation or govt. (e.g., Ch. of Eng.); the sum total of the various Christian denominations in a country; and the house of Christian worship.

2. Biblical meaning. The word “church” is derived from the Gk. kyriakos, “of, or belonging to, the Lord.” In the OT 2 words were used for the idea of assembly: edah and qahal (Lv 4:13, 14; cf. Heb 12:23). In the NT the term is ekklesia, derived from ekkalein, “call out”; hence the term describing the town meeting of the Gk. city is transferred to the gathering of those who have been summoned by the call of God and His Spirit to belong to His people in Christ (Eph 1:22, 23; 4:1–6). The 80-plus instances of the term in the NT designate the body of all believers in all the world, or the believers gathered in a particular place (e.g., Gl 1:2; “ch. in the house” Cl 4:15; Ro 16:5). In no case is the term used of gatherings in which also unbelievers are essentially numbered, unless Rv 2–3 is so interpreted. The picture of the ch. used by Paul (cf. 1 Co 12; Eph 4:1–16; Ro 12:4–18; 14:1; 15:1) and probably implied by Jesus (Mt 25:31–46), that the mems. of the ch. are the body of Christ on earth, stresses that they stand in a functional relation toward each other, namely that they “edify” (1 Co 14:26; Eph 4:12) or build up one another in faith for life. This mutual relation is termed koinonia (“sharing”) and involves mutual care expressed in forgiveness and admonition (cf. Mt 18; Eph 5:19, 20), the Lord's Supper (1 Co 10:16, 17), and care for physical need (2 Co 8:4). The breaking of this mutual activity receives vivid rebuke (Ro 16:17, 18; 3 Jn 9–11). Other analogies for the ch. stress that it is the place where God is worshiped (Eph 2:19–22), the means by which God is glorified to the world (1 Ptr 2; Ph 2:14–16).

3. Visible and invisible. In reaction to RC stress on the political quality of the ch. in its submission to the pope, the concepts of “visible” and “invisible” ch. were developed, though the terms are not in the Bible and the Luth. confessions. The term “invisible” is a useful adjective for the ch., if it denies a political essence to the ch. (Ap VII and VIII, 23–28), reminds of the worldwide community in which true Christians should live together, and denotes God's own recognition of each believer (2 Ti 2:19); it is harmful if it makes of “church” an abstract idea without counterpart in fact (Ap VII and VIII, 20) or allows the assumption that a perfect unity already exists that does not need the careful ministry of every mem. of the ch. (cf. Eph 4:1–16). The term “visible” is useful if it sets up a sphere of activity in which Christians genuinely labor for each other and in witness to their world; it is harmful if activism is allowed to replace Word and Sacrament as the means of propulsion of the ch. See also Luther, Chief Writings of, 7.

4. Marks. In contrast to the position that the episcopate or apostolic succession are the esse of the ch., the Luth. symbols have developed the concept of the Gospel and the Sacraments as the marks of the ch. (AC V, VIII, XIII). Special ministers of the Word are significant for the ch. as they use Gospel and Sacraments and train Christians for their mutual ministry (Eph 4:7–13
murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:07 pm

Q. 489. What is the Church?

A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head.
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:57 pm
Our perspective:

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=C&word=CHURCH

Church.
1. The word “church” is commonly applied to the whole number of true believers, the communion of saints, the invisible ch. of Christ; any particular denomination of Christian people; particular congs. of any Christian denomination; the religious establishment of any particular nation or govt. (e.g., Ch. of Eng.); the sum total of the various Christian denominations in a country; and the house of Christian worship.
2. Biblical meaning. The word “church” is derived from the Gk. kyriakos, “of, or belonging to, the Lord.” In the OT 2 words were used for the idea of assembly: edah and qahal (Lv 4:13, 14; cf. Heb 12:23). In the NT the term is ekklesia, derived from ekkalein, “call out”; hence the term describing the town meeting of the Gk. city is transferred to the gathering of those who have been summoned by the call of God and His Spirit to belong to His people in Christ (Eph 1:22, 23; 4:1–6). The 80-plus instances of the term in the NT designate the body of all believers in all the world, or the believers gathered in a particular place (e.g., Gl 1:2; “ch. in the house” Cl 4:15; Ro 16:5). In no case is the term used of gatherings in which also unbelievers are essentially numbered, unless Rv 2–3 is so interpreted. The picture of the ch. used by Paul (cf. 1 Co 12; Eph 4:1–16; Ro 12:4–18; 14:1; 15:1) and probably implied by Jesus (Mt 25:31–46), that the mems. of the ch. are the body of Christ on earth, stresses that they stand in a functional relation toward each other, namely that they “edify” (1 Co 14:26; Eph 4:12) or build up one another in faith for life. This mutual relation is termed koinonia (“sharing”) and involves mutual care expressed in forgiveness and admonition (cf. Mt 18; Eph 5:19, 20), the Lord's Supper (1 Co 10:16, 17), and care for physical need (2 Co 8:4). The breaking of this mutual activity receives vivid rebuke (Ro 16:17, 18; 3 Jn 9–11). Other analogies for the ch. stress that it is the place where God is worshiped (Eph 2:19–22), the means by which God is glorified to the world (1 Ptr 2; Ph 2:14–16).
3. Visible and invisible. In reaction to RC stress on the political quality of the ch. in its submission to the pope, the concepts of “visible” and “invisible” ch. were developed, though the terms are not in the Bible and the Luth. confessions. The term “invisible” is a useful adjective for the ch., if it denies a political essence to the ch. (Ap VII and VIII, 23–28), reminds of the worldwide community in which true Christians should live together, and denotes God's own recognition of each believer (2 Ti 2:19); it is harmful if it makes of “church” an abstract idea without counterpart in fact (Ap VII and VIII, 20) or allows the assumption that a perfect unity already exists that does not need the careful ministry of every mem. of the ch. (cf. Eph 4:1–16). The term “visible” is useful if it sets up a sphere of activity in which Christians genuinely labor for each other and in witness to their world; it is harmful if activism is allowed to replace Word and Sacrament as the means of propulsion of the ch. See also Luther, Chief Writings of, 7.
4. Marks. In contrast to the position that the episcopate or apostolic succession are the esse of the ch., the Luth. symbols have developed the concept of the Gospel and the Sacraments as the marks of the ch. (AC V, VIII, XIII). Special ministers of the Word are significant for the ch. as they use Gospel and Sacraments and train Christians for their mutual ministry (Eph 4:7–13
murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:07 pm

Q. 489. What is the Church?

A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head.
Some observations....

"the religious establishment of any particular nation or govt. (e.g., Ch. of Eng.);"

"In reaction to RC stress on the political quality of the ch. in its submission to the pope"

So from these two statements, I conclude that the Lutheran position is that it is better for the church to be subservient to the State, rather than the Pope. In fact, that can be a sign that it is the real church. Strange concept, that the church will be subservient to the political authority, since Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. The Bible suggests he's king of King and Lord of lords, but lutherans have his Church subservient to the government. How convenient for the political authorities to be head of their local church.


"In reaction to RC stress on the political quality of the ch. in its submission to the pope, the concepts of “visible” and “invisible” ch. were developed, though the terms are not in the Bible"

-I note that the Lutheran religion acknowledges they created their own theology which was not part of Christianity before that time, but rather as a reaction against the Catholic Church, to bolster their own political belief
-I note that the Lutheran religion does not limit its teaching to Sola scriptura



"In contrast to the position that the episcopate or apostolic succession are the esse of the ch., the Luth. symbols have developed the concept of the Gospel and the Sacraments as the marks of the ch."

See my previous two observations immediately above

How convenient of them to develop a theology which justifies their power grab.


I further observe so much verbage to define the church as basically any self-styled group of Christians who reject the Pope. This is an essential element. For example, it could include high Church anglicans and the followers of Cromwell.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:06 am

Murphy, I think you're losing the "new theology" battle. The Lutherans dealt with the reality that the Roman church had cursed the Gospel and left the true church. The church is still one, we just don't see it. You believe the same thing, IF you believe that anybody who isn't Roman Catholic will be saved. Do you?

Meanwhile, Scripture has declared itself complete. We can quibble about which books are in and are out, but it's clear that the apostolic gifts of prophecy etc have ceased. So to bind consciences to new theology based on one person's claimed vision is beyond tenuous. How many millions of "vision"s are there every year? Really you're basing your new theology on the "infallible Magisterium's" declaration that THIS vision was for real. This is no different from the Pentecostal preachers who claim to be telling us whatever direct revelation they got from "God" that morning.

And you're almost as much a Lutheran as I am! You're claiming that the guy in charge of the Roman church isn't the true Pope. Right! But what gives you the right to make your own judgment on such matters?

Your entire argument rests on the Pope being the successor of Peter. This relies on:
a) Peter having been given a fundamentally higher office than others (biblical support dubious)
b) That office being passed down from one generation to the next (biblical support absent)
c) That we must be followers of that claimed successor no matter what he teaches merely because he claims to be Peter's successor (biblically contradicted)

In the book of Galatians, St Paul (a real apostle, as opposed to the purported apostle sitting on a throne in the Vatican) writes extensively about how we are justified by grace through faith, not by works. It couldn't be more clear. And not only that, in the same book he says:
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
It's quite clear that we all have a duty to separate ourselves from any leader, even (especially!) one who claims to be the "Vicar of Christ", if that person promotes another Gospel, particularly, righteousness by works. So EVEN IF we grant points a and b above, we must reject the Pope as a purveyor of the false and pernicious doctrine of works righteousness.

I note that you DO reject the Pope, you just have different criteria than I do.

One more point on purgatory: Doesn't the Pope (supposedly) have the authority to release souls from Purgatory? Why doesn't he just do it for everyone?
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:16 am

Murphy, I appreciate your willingness to engage on this topic. However, I doubt that anything I say will change your beliefs, and I doubt that anything you say will change mine. It is interesting to see how others interpret God's Word. I'll add a couple of comments to your last post and maybe just leave it at that.

The state exists to reduce chaos and provide order so that people are free to worship. The Confessional Lutheran church is subservient to God's Word. When the state conflicts with God's Word, we follow God, not the state. Confessional Lutheran's give primacy to God's Word, not man including the Pope. When the Pope agrees with God's Word, we would probably say "great". When the Pope invents rules that are not covered in Scripture, we would probably say "not so great".

Again, I respect your thoughtful, civil replies on this subject. When some need to resort to hateful, disrespectful, unGodly language to express their opinions, all I can do is pray for them and the obvious hurt they have experienced, possibly as a result of very law based (e.g. don't drink, don't dance, don't go to movies and such like some of my friends have experienced). I pray the Holy Spirit will lead all those who are hurting to repentance and make Jesus known in their hearts and lives. Thanks be to God for those who focus on the good news, the gospel, of what Jesus did, is doing, and promises to do, FOR US! Lutherans believe the primary direction is from God to us. All we can do is respond to that incredible love, the glorious exchange of His righteousness for our sin, with thanks and praise.

Peace brother, ... Mountaineer
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:45 am

Xan



Q. 508. Why did Christ found the Church?

A. Christ founded the Church to teach, govern, sanctify, and save all men.

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.



I believe this. I refer you back to extra ecclesium nulla salus, with the suitable qualifications.



[...]
Q. 513. Why must the true Church be visible?

A. The true Church must be visible because its founder, Jesus Christ, commanded us under pain of condemnation to hear the Church; and He could not in justice command us to hear a Church that could not be seen and known.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:07 am

Xan wrote:

Meanwhile, Scripture has declared itself complete. We can quibble about which books are in and are out, but it's clear that the apostolic gifts of prophecy etc have ceased. So to bind consciences to new theology based on one person's claimed vision is beyond tenuous. How many millions of "vision"s are there every year? Really you're basing your new theology on the "infallible Magisterium's" declaration that THIS vision was for real. This is no different from the Pentecostal preachers who claim to be telling us whatever direct revelation they got from "God" that morning.


Thank you for this paragraph to allow me to clarify this matter is regards to the Catholic Church.

-it's an aside, but I'm surprised you would describe the certainty of which books make the Canon is quibbling.

With the death of St John the evangelist, the Catholic Church teaches that Revelation has been completed. Prophecies which come after that, even if they are approved by the church, are not binding on the faithful for belief. That includes Revelations which have been judged by the church to be of supernatural origin, complete with the miracle of the Sun, such as Fatima. There are not only mistaken, but also fraudulent, claims of apparitions. (I strongly suspect medjigori is the latter). You are right to disparage your fellow Protestant Pentecostal with fake claims of messages from his god.

You may have written what you wrote in regards to my mention of Lourdes, as confirming the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Again, no Catholic is bound to believe the Lourdes apparitions, even though it does miraculously confirm the doctrine which was proclaimed infallibly around that time.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:17 am

Xan wrote:
And you're almost as much a Lutheran as I am! You're claiming that the guy in charge of the Roman church isn't the true Pope. Right! But what gives you the right to make your own judgment on such matters?


On the contrary, even a sedevacantist (which I am not) correctly recognizes the necessity of the Church, under St Peter and his successors. An interesting aside... There is at least one canonized Saint who mistakenly recognized an anti Pope to be the true Pope.

Judgment on the matter of who is the Pope? Benedict remains Pope, as he never renounced the "munus," per canon law. I refer you to the "from Rome" blog if you would like to explore this question further.
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:48 pm

Xan wrote:

In the book of Galatians, St Paul (a real apostle, as opposed to the purported apostle sitting on a throne in the Vatican) writes extensively about how we are justified by grace through faith, not by works. It couldn't be more clear.


Is Paul saying that living the Christian life (which includes doing good works) won't save, or rather that the works of the Jewish ceremonial law don't save?
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:09 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:48 pm

Xan wrote:

In the book of Galatians, St Paul (a real apostle, as opposed to the purported apostle sitting on a throne in the Vatican) writes extensively about how we are justified by grace through faith, not by works. It couldn't be more clear.


Is Paul saying that living the Christian life (which includes doing good works) won't save, or rather that the works of the Jewish ceremonial law don't save?


As Xan stated ... it does seem clear that it is the former ...
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:38 am

Vinny... My question is most certainly Socratic.

I'm giving opportunity for the Lutheran apologists to elaborate, before I shine light on the subject.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:07 am

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
As both the Old Testament (which Paul quotes) and Paul say, Abraham's trust in the word of God was counted to him as righteousness. Are you going to claim that really Abraham was justified by his loving good works to his neighbor as opposed to his works of the Jewish ceremonial law, or are you going to believe both the Old and New Testaments which say his trust in God was counted to him as righteousness?

Works righteousness is the natural state of man. It's what every contrived religion boils down to. It's the religion that our flesh WANTS, because it puts us in control, we feel like we're doing something, we feel like we're the good guys not like those other schlubs out there. Of course we would find works righteousness nosing its way into the Church, and it must be stamped out.

Works righteousness can lead to only one of two places: despair or pride. Neither of which is conducive to gratitude at what the Lord has done for us in Christ, neither of which is conducive to saving faith.

Murphy, you don't seem to be in despair, but you do seem to at least be flirting with the other option. Are you intending, when you find yourself in the heavenly courtroom, to plead that you deserve salvation because of your works? I'll give you credit for guts. I'll be pleading the blood of Christ, given and shed for me for the forgiveness of sins.

Titus 3:5:
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit

Ezekiel 33:13:
Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and does injustice, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered, but in his injustice that he has done he shall die.

Romans 3:21-22:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
User avatar
Hal
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Hal » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:08 pm

Something lighthearted

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/good-ne ... oof-bible/
(Always found it a bit amusing we had a bible, wonder if commandment about not killing is still in there ;D )

Something a bit deeper

https://caldronpool.com/should-churches ... segregate/

Something philosophical to ponder over. Enjoy
Aussie GoldSmithPP - 25% PMGOLD, 75% VDCO
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:37 pm

Xan-I preface the following, assuming your good intentions in trying to bring people to what you believe to be the correct path. Having said that, I am obliged to point out the following...


In Paul's letter to the galatians, he expresses his concern that the Christian community is being influenced by those who want the new Christians to adopt "works of the law," which includes circumcision. He rightly admonishes this community not to even attempt to hold the Jewish ceremonial law aka "works of the law."

This is because the old order has passed, and the "works of the law" do not save, as you correctly point out. Paul bolsters his case by making this point, as he knew the law better than most, as he states in the first chapter. He was a zealous follower of the law.

The "works of the law" has *nothing* to do with how a Christian is saved. It pertained to the old covenant. Here is the critical point.....It has nothing to do with what you mistakenly accuse the Catholic Church of teaching...namely "works righteousness." (Which presumably means Catholics think they're saved by the good works they do, irrespective of their faith in the Messiah, or some variation thereof.)

It appears the error you make is conflating "works of the law" with doing good works...such as feeding the hungry, admonishing sinners, instructing the ignorant, etc.

Btw... As a lifelong catholic, I had never heard of this phrase "works righteousness" until reading it in this thread. I haven't read all the Catholic catechisms, so maybe you can refer me to a Catholic citation teaching this strange doctrine you accuse Catholics of holding.

Barring that, I conclude by stating that you are completely confused by what you think you've read in Paul's letter to the Galatians, as I have demonstrated above. You mistakenly use this epistle to batter the Church for a position which she does not even hold. (Straw man argument)
murphy_p_t
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:44 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:43 pm

Xan wrote: One more point on purgatory: Doesn't the Pope (supposedly) have the authority to release souls from Purgatory? Why doesn't he just do it for everyone?

I suppose this was meant to be some kind of gotcha question. Regardless, I posit the following.

God's justice is perfectly matched by his Mercy. Do you think it would be consistent with God's justice to frivolously dispense with the merciful cleansing of purgatory?
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kbg » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:58 pm

I usually don't dip into online religious discussions, but I think the heavy reliance on Paul's teachings to indicate works don't matter are very hard to square with what Jesus Christ said and did in the four gospels. Would a Christian suggest Paul's teachings are more important than the Master's own words and acts? Paul's teachings (as absolutism on this matter) are also hard to square with the teachings of Peter, James and John who are generally recognized as the senior apostles and were in Christ's "inner circle." Even Paul knew he was not the apostolic equivalent of Peter.

What's the point of a final judgement, if you're not being judged?

I think a common sense reading of the Bible suggests grace and works are both necessary for salvation.

Of course all faiths like to point to parts of the bible that support their doctrinal positions and downplay those that do not...and the reason why I don't usually delve into online religious stuff.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:37 am

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:58 pm

I usually don't dip into online religious discussions, but I think the heavy reliance on Paul's teachings to indicate works don't matter are very hard to square with what Jesus Christ said and did in the four gospels. Would a Christian suggest Paul's teachings are more important than the Master's own words and acts? Paul's teachings (as absolutism on this matter) are also hard to square with the teachings of Peter, James and John who are generally recognized as the senior apostles and were in Christ's "inner circle." Even Paul knew he was not the apostolic equivalent of Peter.

What's the point of a final judgement, if you're not being judged?

I think a common sense reading of the Bible suggests grace and works are both necessary for salvation.

Of course all faiths like to point to parts of the bible that support their doctrinal positions and downplay those that do not...and the reason why I don't usually delve into online religious stuff.


Then from that one never has a sense of "Eternal Security"? One would never know if one's works would "good enough"?

From my knowledge ....

Catholicism is referred to as the "step-ladder" religion. If you do all these steps (to some unspecified quality level) then you might make be allowed into Heaven.

The Christian Biblical non-denominational position is similar to what I believe Xan stated above. That it is strictly grace that gets you in. Your belief in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Otherwise you are put right back into the Catholic position that you will never know that you have "Eternal Security". It all depends upon if your body of earthly works were good enough to merit entrance into Heaven.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Post Reply