Coronavirus General Discussion

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pugchief
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pugchief » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:06 pm

pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:28 am
Have you all heard that Anthony Fauci's wife also works for the NIH?

From the Wikipedia ....
Christine Grady is an American nurse and bioethicist who serves as the head of the Department of Bioethics at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center.[1]
She was a Commissioner on the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues from 2010 and 2017.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Grady
That Fauci family must have an odd definition of ethics.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by l82start » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:11 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:06 pm
pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:28 am
Have you all heard that Anthony Fauci's wife also works for the NIH?

From the Wikipedia ....
Christine Grady is an American nurse and bioethicist who serves as the head of the Department of Bioethics at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center.[1]
She was a Commissioner on the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues from 2010 and 2017.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Grady
That Fauci family must have an odd definition of ethics.
odd compared to who? seems like a pretty standard definition in Washington...
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:47 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:17 am
So if they open up and get a few dozen cases, back into lockdown???
That's my guess. Wait for next November/December when it is virtually guaranteed to happen. So don't throw those masks away just yet.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pp4me » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:14 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:06 pm
pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:28 am
Have you all heard that Anthony Fauci's wife also works for the NIH?

From the Wikipedia ....
Christine Grady is an American nurse and bioethicist who serves as the head of the Department of Bioethics at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center.[1]
She was a Commissioner on the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues from 2010 and 2017.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Grady
That Fauci family must have an odd definition of ethics.
Still waiting to see what becomes of the "gain of function" thing that Fauci was apparently interested in pursuing if reports are to be believed.

If Mrs. Fauci was the head of bioethics at NIH and this really happened at the Wuhan lab at U.S. taxpayer expense, as some claim, it seems to me that she ought to testify under oath about what she knew and when she knew it.

And no offense to nurses as I know many and have nothing but respect for them but how does a nurse get such an exalted position of "chief of bioethics" at the NIH?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:32 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:47 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:17 am
So if they open up and get a few dozen cases, back into lockdown???
That's my guess. Wait for next November/December when it is virtually guaranteed to happen. So don't throw those masks away just yet.
So if Sophie is correct and cases spike this winter, what is everyone's opinion on our response? Given that vaccinations will have been available for almost a year at that point, life returning to normal and also people seeing the aftermath of supply chain disruptions, labor shortages etc, does the public have the appetite to go back to lockdowns, masks and distancing rules again? Or will the media even report on the spike in cases? Will we even be doing the constant testing and reporting of "cases" any longer? Any guesses?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by SomeDude » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:51 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:32 am
sophie wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:47 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:17 am
So if they open up and get a few dozen cases, back into lockdown???
That's my guess. Wait for next November/December when it is virtually guaranteed to happen. So don't throw those masks away just yet.
So if Sophie is correct and cases spike this winter, what is everyone's opinion on our response? Given that vaccinations will have been available for almost a year at that point, life returning to normal and also people seeing the aftermath of supply chain disruptions, labor shortages etc, does the public have the appetite to go back to lockdowns, masks and distancing rules again? Or will the media even report on the spike in cases? Will we even be doing the constant testing and reporting of "cases" any longer? Any guesses?
All i know for sure is "we have to do something". Millions of Americans have been jabbed. The jabs will not be stopping for them. I believe our future is lots more pandemics, maybe annually with all kinds of new freedoms forced on us.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by tomfoolery » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:38 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:51 pm

All i know for sure is "we have to do something". Millions of Americans have been jabbed. The jabs will not be stopping for them. I believe our future is lots more pandemics, maybe annually with all kinds of new freedoms forced on us.
Well we do have to do something.

And the freedoms won’t be forced upon everyone. Only to the people who don’t agree voluntarily, so it’s not that big of a deal. Just go along with it and you won’t be forced to do anything.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:02 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:32 am
So if Sophie is correct and cases spike this winter, what is everyone's opinion on our response? Given that vaccinations will have been available for almost a year at that point, life returning to normal and also people seeing the aftermath of supply chain disruptions, labor shortages etc, does the public have the appetite to go back to lockdowns, masks and distancing rules again? Or will the media even report on the spike in cases? Will we even be doing the constant testing and reporting of "cases" any longer? Any guesses?
I think a lot of that will depend on what kind of post-mortem analysis of the past year is eventually accepted and reported by the MSM before this November/December.

If the idea that the lockdowns and mask mandates were overkill doesn’t become mainstream by this coming winter, then I think the next flu season will at least bring a resurgence of mask mandates in blue states. Maybe not full lockdowns, but almost certainly masks.

Red states probably won’t put up with any of that nonsense again.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:24 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:06 pm
pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:28 am
Have you all heard that Anthony Fauci's wife also works for the NIH?

From the Wikipedia ....
Christine Grady is an American nurse and bioethicist who serves as the head of the Department of Bioethics at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center.[1]
She was a Commissioner on the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues from 2010 and 2017.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Grady
That Fauci family must have an odd definition of ethics.

https://nypost.com/2021/06/09/fauci-say ... n-science/

Well played Dr Fauci. Well played. Who can be against science????
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by sophie » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:57 am

There's been a spate of articles about myocarditis/pericarditis (inflammation of or around the heart) induced by the COVID vaccines....apparently the rates are particularly high in adolescents. Who, you may recall, have a vanishingly low risk of serious adverse effects from COVID.

Many schools and universities are now requiring COVID vaccination for all students, so there is a serious potential health & ethical issue here. Wonder how this is going to play out. Anyone here with teenage family members dealing with this situation?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by tomfoolery » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:33 pm

I equate Fauci to a modern day Copernicus, and if he is martyred, so be it, but in 500 years, people will still be talking about his courage and likely have a holiday named after him.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:07 am

sophie wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:57 am
There's been a spate of articles about myocarditis/pericarditis (inflammation of or around the heart) induced by the COVID vaccines....apparently the rates are particularly high in adolescents. Who, you may recall, have a vanishingly low risk of serious adverse effects from COVID.

Many schools and universities are now requiring COVID vaccination for all students, so there is a serious potential health & ethical issue here. Wonder how this is going to play out. Anyone here with teenage family members dealing with this situation?
My son is a sophomore at Indiana University, and they are mandating vaccination for all students and employees at all of their campuses. For legal reasons they are unable to require documentation (a change from their original plan) but they are incentivizing it instead. My son is also involved in a semi-pro sports league that is requiring vaccination. So between the two, he feels that he really has no choice. I've explained that of course he has a choice, but I agree with him that the consequences are undesirable.

The mRNA vaccines are the ones generating the concerns about myocarditis but my son is choosing to get the J&J vaccine. I'm sure it has much more to do with convenience ("one and done") than any real research into the issues.

My personal opinion is that the mandates are completely unethical and wrong. Believe what you want about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines (or whether they should even be called vaccines), but don't coerce people into injecting an experimental gene therapy for which there is no long-term safety data. It's apparent to me that the big push is for mass vaccination, not for ending the pandemic. If it were about "following the science" then consideration would be given to immunity acquired from having COVID, vaccines, prophylactics like ivermectin, and therapeutics as well. But instead it's just all vaccines all the time, and anything that questions the official narrative gets squelched rather quickly.

We're already learning that the spike protein used in the vaccines is itself pathogenic, and that it's making its way into the bloodstream to be distributed throughout the body. Both of which were not "advertised" when these things were rolled out. Maybe it's nothing, but either way I guess we're going to find out.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jhogue » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:30 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:33 pm
I equate Fauci to a modern day Copernicus, and if he is martyred, so be it, but in 500 years, people will still be talking about his courage and likely have a holiday named after him.
Dr. Fauci is no martyr; he is the most highly paid civil servant in the US government. He is also remarkably-- and perhaps unscientifically-- uninterested in the origins of a virus that has killed half a million of his fellow citizens.
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by I Shrugged » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:36 am

jhogue wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:30 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:33 pm
I equate Fauci to a modern day Copernicus, and if he is martyred, so be it, but in 500 years, people will still be talking about his courage and likely have a holiday named after him.
Dr. Fauci is no martyr; he is the most highly paid civil servant in the US government. He is also remarkably-- and perhaps unscientifically-- uninterested in the origins of a virus that has killed half a million of his fellow citizens.
Well don't forget, Trump killed most of them.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... eline.html
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by stuper1 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 pm

sophie wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:57 am
There's been a spate of articles about myocarditis/pericarditis (inflammation of or around the heart) induced by the COVID vaccines....apparently the rates are particularly high in adolescents. Who, you may recall, have a vanishingly low risk of serious adverse effects from COVID.

Many schools and universities are now requiring COVID vaccination for all students, so there is a serious potential health & ethical issue here. Wonder how this is going to play out. Anyone here with teenage family members dealing with this situation?
My daughter is in high school, and for several months has been begging to get the vaccine. Everyone else on her track team has had the vaccine, and I think she feels like like the lone wolf, which nobody wants to be in high school. I told her months ago, no way, no how is she getting the vaccine until it's had a lot more testing (meaning many years, just like every other vaccine except this one). It's just not worth the risk to take an experimental treatment, especially when young people have a vanishingly small risk of being harmed by Covid in the first place. There have been many historical medical cases of supposedly safe treatments being used and then later bad unintended effects are discovered. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't think anyone is actively trying to harm people with the vaccine. And maybe nothing bad will happen in the long term. I hope that's the case, but I'm not willing to roll the dice on that. I suspect there are two big reasons why the vaccine is being pushed so hard. One is to cover the tracks of politicians who reacted too strongly to Covid with the lockdowns. They can point to the vaccine as being a game changer, and hope that everybody forgets about how much unnecessary mental/physical/emotional/financial damage was caused by the lockdowns, which was a lot more than the damage due to Covid that was averted by the lockdowns. The second reason is just like everything: follow the money. Every dose of vaccine that is given means more money in the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:24 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 pm
I suspect there are two big reasons why the vaccine is being pushed so hard. One is to cover the tracks of politicians who reacted too strongly to Covid with the lockdowns. They can point to the vaccine as being a game changer, and hope that everybody forgets about how much unnecessary mental/physical/emotional/financial damage was caused by the lockdowns, which was a lot more than the damage due to Covid that was averted by the lockdowns. The second reason is just like everything: follow the money. Every dose of vaccine that is given means more money in the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies.
Bingo on both counts.
"You haven't, I suppose, ever mixed with politicians at close quarters. They're awful. I think some of these must have been the dregs anyhow, but I've discovered, what previously I didn't believe possible, that politicians behave in private life and say exactly the same things as they do in public. Their stupidity is inhuman.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:54 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:24 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 pm
I suspect there are two big reasons why the vaccine is being pushed so hard. […]
Bingo on both counts.
+1
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:38 am

stuper1 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 pm
The second reason is just like everything: follow the money. Every dose of vaccine that is given means more money in the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies.
I understand how that gets Biden and the Feds on board pushing vaccinations. But how does that move the needle on my local radio station doing hourly "public service" commercials on getting the shot? My local djs? Celebrities? Businesses who dont want to let me in without it? Krispy Kreme offering me free donuts? Why are so many people jumping into waters which could be very dangerous and have no real direct effect on them? Does JNJ have something on Krispy Kreme?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:01 am

Another theory that fits the facts is that there's a new virus floating around that's sufficiently dangerous both in terms of known and unknown short- and long-term effects to severely disrupt society, and that we now have multiple vaccines that work really well at preventing it.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by flyingpylon » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:07 am

jalanlong wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:38 am
stuper1 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 pm
The second reason is just like everything: follow the money. Every dose of vaccine that is given means more money in the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies.
I understand how that gets Biden and the Feds on board pushing vaccinations. But how does that move the needle on my local radio station doing hourly "public service" commercials on getting the shot? My local djs? Celebrities? Businesses who dont want to let me in without it? Krispy Kreme offering me free donuts? Why are so many people jumping into waters which could be very dangerous and have no real direct effect on them? Does JNJ have something on Krispy Kreme?
Narratives, groupthink and virtue signalling are very powerful forces.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Maddy » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:17 am

jalanlong wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:38 am
I understand how that gets Biden and the Feds on board pushing vaccinations. But how does that move the needle on my local radio station doing hourly "public service" commercials on getting the shot? My local djs? Celebrities? Businesses who dont want to let me in without it? Krispy Kreme offering me free donuts? Why are so many people jumping into waters which could be very dangerous and have no real direct effect on them? Does JNJ have something on Krispy Kreme?
I've asked myself this question many times. The answer, I think, is that the coercive pressures, from top to bottom, are far more extensive than anyone could imagine.

You mentioned your local DJ. I live in a small town and walk into the local radio station from time to time. Last time I did, I asked the owner/DJ about a sudden clamming up regarding certain topics on which he had been commenting regularly. He got a coded "I can't talk about it" look on his face and mumbled something about having to please certain people to maintain his license. . .

It's amazing how reflexively local government responds to the signals out of Washington D.C. They've been taking federal and state grants for years, always with strings attached (either explicitly or implicitly), and they've become addicted to the stream of income continuing. Even in this small, mostly conservative town, it's been a lesson to see our elected officials going turncoat blue--or at least passively silent in the face of these pressures.

Re Krispy Kreme, it's not hard to imagine that they want to be on the side of whomever's calling the shots--having just come out of a year-long period during which one business is arbitrarily allowed to operate and another is not.

I don't know about celebrities. I think Hollywood is rotten to the core, and in their case it's not hard to imagine that they do have something to fear. . .
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:37 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:17 am
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:38 am
I understand how that gets Biden and the Feds on board pushing vaccinations. But how does that move the needle on my local radio station doing hourly "public service" commercials on getting the shot? My local djs? Celebrities? Businesses who dont want to let me in without it? Krispy Kreme offering me free donuts? Why are so many people jumping into waters which could be very dangerous and have no real direct effect on them? Does JNJ have something on Krispy Kreme?
I've asked myself this question many times. The answer, I think, is that the coercive pressures, from top to bottom, are far more extensive than anyone could imagine.

You mentioned your local DJ. I live in a small town and walk into the local radio station from time to time. Last time I did, I asked the owner/DJ about a sudden clamming up regarding certain topics on which he had been commenting regularly. He got a coded "I can't talk about it" look on his face and mumbled something about having to please certain people to maintain his license. . .

It's amazing how reflexively local government responds to the signals out of Washington D.C. They've been taking federal and state grants for years, always with strings attached (either explicitly or implicitly), and they've become addicted to the stream of income continuing. Even in this small, mostly conservative town, it's been a lesson to see our elected officials going turncoat blue--or at least passively silent in the face of these pressures.

Re Krispy Kreme, it's not hard to imagine that they want to be on the side of whomever's calling the shots--having just come out of a year-long period during which one business is arbitrarily allowed to operate and another is not.

I don't know about celebrities. I think Hollywood is rotten to the core, and in their case it's not hard to imagine that they do have something to fear. . .
One thought I've had is what if 1 year or 5 years from now, a side effect comes up. Maybe a deadly one. And they are able to trace it back to the vaccination. All of the people who took the shot, who would they blame? Obviously not themselves. Will they blame the Federal Government? The pharmaceutical companies? All of the businesses and universities that wouldn't let them in without a shot? Will they blame celebrities, sports figures, scientists who told them to get the shot?

I guess jumping on the bandwagon of telling people to inject something into their body will not come back to haunt you if you can just point at everyone else and say I was going by the information I was given.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by barrett » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:53 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:01 am
Another theory that fits the facts is that there's a new virus floating around that's sufficiently dangerous both in terms of known and unknown short- and long-term effects to severely disrupt society, and that we now have multiple vaccines that work really well at preventing it.
I'm with you on this, Xan. I do have friends who have chosen to not get vaccinated and they are well within their rights to make that choice. But for most of us (even on this forum, I believe) we are making the calculation that to severely limit the possibility of getting really sick or dying from Covid, we are willing to accept the small possibility that something could go wrong down the line due to being vaccinated.

Incidentally, I think we do this all the time with medications of all sorts. I know there are potential long term side affects to a couple of medications that I currently take, but the fact that I have a better quality of life right now is worth a lot to me.

But I'll also add that having a lot of the world shut down due to this damn virus was crippling to our family business, so that could be swaying my belief toward "Vaccines Good."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:06 pm

barrett wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:53 am
Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:01 am
Another theory that fits the facts is that there's a new virus floating around that's sufficiently dangerous both in terms of known and unknown short- and long-term effects to severely disrupt society, and that we now have multiple vaccines that work really well at preventing it.
I'm with you on this, Xan. I do have friends who have chosen to not get vaccinated and they are well within their rights to make that choice. But for most of us (even on this forum, I believe) we are making the calculation that to severely limit the possibility of getting really sick or dying from Covid, we are willing to accept the small possibility that something could go wrong down the line due to being vaccinated.

Incidentally, I think we do this all the time with medications of all sorts. I know there are potential long term side affects to a couple of medications that I currently take, but the fact that I have a better quality of life right now is worth a lot to me.

But I'll also add that having a lot of the world shut down due to this damn virus was crippling to our family business, so that could be swaying my belief toward "Vaccines Good."

I would not equate those two. If I have migraines now and choose to take a medication to alleviate them, I am making a calculated judgement that the side effects I get from the medications will be better than the known effects I get from the migraines I currently have. With Covid, people are getting vaccinated and doing a pure roll of the dice that the potential harm from a vaccination is better than the potential harm from the virus. Its not taking an unknown to cure a current known illness. It is taking an unknown to cure an unknown illness that you may never even contract.

If you are older, obese or have some pre-existing health issues then the percentages are probably with you on taking the vaccine. If not then I don't know why people just assume one is better than the other. In fact we have even more evidence that says if you are younger and in good health then Covid presents very low chances of serious illness.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:14 pm

It seems to me that most everybody will get either Covid or the vaccine at some point in their lives, and that the odds of a bad outcome from the virus itself are much higher (by orders of magnitude) than the odds of a bad outcome from the vaccine. The downsides of the vaccine appear to be a subset of the downsides of the virus.
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