US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

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US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 10:59 am

Here is a short video for both owners and non owners of guns, explaining how guns are classified by BATF. Because it's made in a cartoon format, you might think it is satire. But, it's all true. Even the shoestring having once been classified as a machine gun (see below for the ATF explanatory letter). Hopefully we can keep the discussion free of politics, since I posted it here for informational purposes. Non political reactions welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nfCyhOX42g

letter:
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-co ... n-2007.jpg
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Tue May 04, 2021 1:08 pm

I dont understand why this is so hard to understand.

If you have a rifle with less than a 16" barrel, it's illegal without special tax stamp and permission to move across state lines. It's an SBR "Short Barrel Rifle"

If you have a rifle with a 14.5" barrel but have a flash hider that's 1.5" and it's silver soldered on the end, then the overall length is 16" and it's fine, just a regular rifle.

If you forgot to silver solder the flashhider, then it's obviously a short barrel rifle because the barrel is only 14.5"

But if you have a rifle that has a buttstock where the buttstock is designed to be a forearm brace that wraps around the forearm, for handicapped people, then it's a pistol. Because it's designed to be shot one handed by handicapped people. And then it's okay to have a barrel under 16" because it's not a short-barrel rifle, it's a pistol.

And if you make a forearm brace for handicapped people that can be used like a rifle buttstock by non-handicapped people, that used to not be okay, but now it's okay. And you can fire it from your shoulder, two handed, like a rifle, but it's still a pistol, because, well... it's a pistol. The ATF says so.

But god help you if you had a vertical foregrip to the front of that pistol, then it's an AOW (any other weapon). Unless the front foregrip is angled, then it's fine. The problem is the straight up and down vertical foregrips. Those are deadlier.

What's so hard about this?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 2:13 pm

Can I have a shotgun pistol?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Tue May 04, 2021 4:05 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 2:13 pm
Can I have a shotgun pistol?
You can have a smoothbore non-rifled shotgun that is under 18" barrel as long as it doesn't have a stock nor a pistol grip. If it has a birds head grip, it's okay like the ones shown below

Image

But if you put a pistol grip on it, like this one below:

Image

Then you need to have a longer than 18" barrel because a pistol grip plus sub-18" barrel becomes an AOW (any other weapon) which is a $5 tax stamp.

But the same sub-18" barrel with the birds head grip in the first photo, and it's fine, it's not a pistol nor a shotgun, it's a "gun"

But now take the same sub-18" barrel shotgun and put a buttstock on it, and it's a short-barrel shotgun (SBS) and requires a $200 tax stamp.

However if you take this sub-18" barrel shotgun and put a forearm brace on it, that looks like a regular stock, but has an opening in the bottom to put around a handicapped person's forearm, like the one below, then it's back to being just a "gun" and is fine without any special tax stamp.

Image

The tax stamp payment also requires fingerprints and photos be sent to the ATF for a background check that takes 6 to 12 months to perform. Because their NFA West Virginia office is swamped with a backlog. The process used to require your police chief to sign off on it, but people were forming trusts on the back of napkins to bypass this requirement, because a trust is a legal entity that did not require Chief LEO signoff nor did trusts require fingerprints or photos or background check, and the ATF figured this out and said "okay fine, we'll scrap the CLEO signoff requirement, but trusts will be changed so they require a responsible party to submit fingerprints and photos.

Additionally if you pay the $5 tax stamp for the AOW or $200 tax stamp for the SBS and move the gun across state lines, then you need to notify the ATF of the movement on a Form 5320.20, in advance, and receive confirmation that they approve your move, and the reason you are moving the gun, and what duration of time (temporary, permanent, etc).

And if you go shooting with your tax stamped gun with your wife, and the gun is only stamped to you, then you and your wife become immediate felons, since she's not authorized to possess the gun. So people are still forming trusts, to put their families names on them, so the gun can be shared across the family.

Failure to get this right is mandatory 10 years in prison and $10k in fines. So please pay attention.

On the bright side, these laws were made in 1934, and the tax stamp cost was not indexed to inflation. The purpose of this tax was to prevent anyone but the wealthy from owning certain guns. Because $200 was the equivalent of 5 to 10 ounces of gold.

Imagine trading 10 ounces of gold to the government for permission to shorten your shotgun by 1/2"? Now fortunately, it's only 1/10 oz of gold, photos, fingerprints, and a year waiting time, plus paperwork to transport or share the gun with anyone.

The second amendment works, people!
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 4:26 pm

Does the lethality of the weapon change depending on whether the thing the boolits come out of is smooth or has rifling grooves inside of it? Like say that birds head gizmo, if the boolits thingy had spiral grooves, then what kind of gun would it be?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by SomeDude » Tue May 04, 2021 4:33 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:26 pm
Does the lethality of the weapon change depending on whether the thing the boolits come out of is smooth or has rifling grooves inside of it? Like say that birds head gizmo, if the boolits thingy had spiral grooves, then what kind of gun would it be?
Yes.

Rifling causes the boolit to spin, increasing stability, range and velocity retention.

This is why the infantry firepower in the civil war was magnitudes more devastating than the Napoleonic Wars or the Revolution. The muskets were rifled.

Personally i like the ATF. Those dumb morons call the thing below a pistol bwahahahaha.
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 4:40 pm

Image

So this Judge gizmo fires shotgun shells. And the boolit boom thingy has grooves. But it has a pistol grip. Is it a shotgun, or a short barrelled shotgun, or just a pistol? What if I put one of those butt stock contraptions onto it to make it easier to shoot tin cans with? It'd be a lot harder to conceal that way, but that wouldn't be my intention. So then what would it be, a short barreled rifled shotgun pistol?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 4:47 pm

SomeDude wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:33 pm
I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:26 pm
Does the lethality of the weapon change depending on whether the thing the boolits come out of is smooth or has rifling grooves inside of it? Like say that birds head gizmo, if the boolits thingy had spiral grooves, then what kind of gun would it be?
Yes.

Rifling causes the boolit to spin, increasing stability, range and velocity retention.

This is why the infantry firepower in the civil war was magnitudes more devastating than the Napoleonic Wars or the Revolution. The muskets were rifled.

Personally i like the ATF. Those dumb morons call the thing below a pistol bwahahahaha.
And why is it a pistol, and not a short barreled rifle which is exactly what it looks like? The video didn't explain that. And what calibers of boolits is a pistol like that available in?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Tue May 04, 2021 4:55 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:26 pm
Does the lethality of the weapon change depending on whether the thing the boolits come out of is smooth or has rifling grooves inside of it? Like say that birds head gizmo, if the boolits thingy had spiral grooves, then what kind of gun would it be?
If it has rifling, then it can only be a pistol or a shotgun. So if it doesn't have a buttstock, just has the birdshead "non-pistol grip" grip then it would be a pistol but it has to weigh less than 50oz otherwise I hope you like prison food. And penis.
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Tue May 04, 2021 5:00 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:40 pm
Image

So this Judge gizmo fires shotgun shells. And the boolit boom thingy has grooves. But it has a pistol grip. Is it a shotgun, or a short barrelled shotgun, or just a pistol? What if I put one of those butt stock contraptions onto it to make it easier to shoot tin cans with? It'd be a lot harder to conceal that way, but that wouldn't be my intention. So then what would it be, a short barreled rifled shotgun pistol?
Good question. It is a pistol, because it has rifling. If it had a smoothbore, it would be illegal because it would be an AOW (pistol-gripped short shotgun).

It can shoot shotgun shells, but it's only capable of shooting .410 shotshells because they have the same shell diameter as a 45LC which is a handgun round. So technically, it's only able to shoot a shotshell by virtue of the fact the shell is the same size as the handgun round.

And arguably, the shotgun functionality is worthless because when you rifle the barrel, it causes the shot to spin while in the barrel, which makes the pattern it forms have a huge hole in the middle.

The real question becomes, what if you buy one of those, and shoot 10s thousands of rounds of 45LC through it, until the rifling wears down, and it effectively becomes a smooth bore AOW?

I suppose one should have a gunsmith check their barrel regularly, although I don't believe the ATF has guidelines on exactly how deep rifling must be before it counts as smoothbore. Perhaps, they will know it when they see it.
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 5:03 pm

You know how airline check in counters have a box for checking the size of carry on bags? Could they just do something like that for all these guns? If it fits inside this box, it's a handgun. If it doesn't fit inside this box, it's a long gun. If it folds or telescopes, check it at its smallest size. No tax stamps needed for any of them.

In all seriousness, would not that be a good fix for gun owners?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Tue May 04, 2021 5:10 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 5:03 pm
You know how airline check in counters have a box for checking the size of carry on bags? Could they just do something like that for all these guns? If it fits inside this box, it's a handgun. If it doesn't fit inside this box, it's a long gun. If it folds or telescopes, check it at its smallest size. No tax stamps needed for any of them.

In all seriousness, would not that be a good fix for gun owners?
Yes that sounds perfect. I like my "shall not be infringed" amendments to have their infringements easy to understand.
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by Hal » Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 pm

You should try living in Australia.....

Received a letter from the police that my 1887 lever action shotgun in now "a weapon of mass destruction". It's been classified in with machine guns and the letter states if I sell this old shotgun, I will NEVER be able to purchase a replacement.

The nice old gun is so heavy, I think it would be more deadly as a club ;D
None of that new fangled stainless steel on this baby.....
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 04, 2021 9:14 pm

Hal wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 pm
You should try living in Australia.....

Received a letter from the police that my 1887 lever action shotgun in now "a weapon of mass destruction". It's been classified in with machine guns and the letter states if I sell this old shotgun, I will NEVER be able to purchase a replacement.

The nice old gun is so heavy, I think it would be more deadly as a club ;D
None of that new fangled stainless steel on this baby.....
NIce!

So what makes it a WMD?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by Hal » Wed May 05, 2021 5:51 am

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 9:14 pm
Hal wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 pm
You should try living in Australia.....

Received a letter from the police that my 1887 lever action shotgun in now "a weapon of mass destruction". It's been classified in with machine guns and the letter states if I sell this old shotgun, I will NEVER be able to purchase a replacement.

The nice old gun is so heavy, I think it would be more deadly as a club ;D
None of that new fangled stainless steel on this baby.....
NIce!

So what makes it a WMD?
Any lever or pump action on a shotgun = WMD :o
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by SomeDude » Wed May 05, 2021 6:28 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:47 pm
SomeDude wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:33 pm
I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 4:26 pm
Does the lethality of the weapon change depending on whether the thing the boolits come out of is smooth or has rifling grooves inside of it? Like say that birds head gizmo, if the boolits thingy had spiral grooves, then what kind of gun would it be?
Yes.

Rifling causes the boolit to spin, increasing stability, range and velocity retention.

This is why the infantry firepower in the civil war was magnitudes more devastating than the Napoleonic Wars or the Revolution. The muskets were rifled.

Personally i like the ATF. Those dumb morons call the thing below a pistol bwahahahaha.
And why is it a pistol, and not a short barreled rifle which is exactly what it looks like? The video didn't explain that. And what calibers of boolits is a pistol like that available in?
It's not a rifle because it doesn't have a stock. It has a "hand brace" lol.

ALL calibers from 9mm to .308 at least. Big time hunting rifle calibers.....out of a "pistol".
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed May 05, 2021 6:36 pm

Hal wrote: ↑
Wed May 05, 2021 5:51 am
I Shrugged wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 9:14 pm
Hal wrote: ↑
Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 pm
You should try living in Australia.....

Received a letter from the police that my 1887 lever action shotgun in now "a weapon of mass destruction". It's been classified in with machine guns and the letter states if I sell this old shotgun, I will NEVER be able to purchase a replacement.

The nice old gun is so heavy, I think it would be more deadly as a club ;D
None of that new fangled stainless steel on this baby.....
NIce!

So what makes it a WMD?
Any lever or pump action on a shotgun = WMD :o
lol

I own an Australian weapon of mass destruction.

COME AT ME ALL YOU ANTI-FREEDOM "SHOULD YOU BE ABLE TO OWN A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION" LOSERS
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by mathjak107 » Sun May 09, 2021 4:30 am

If you want to see strange and conflicting you have to see what is allowed here in nyc …. A ruger 10/22 with the standard clip is on the banned list
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by I Shrugged » Sun May 09, 2021 9:38 am

mathjak107 wrote: ↑
Sun May 09, 2021 4:30 am
If you want to see strange and conflicting you have to see what is allowed here in nyc …. A ruger 10/22 with the standard clip is on the banned list
Too many boolits I am guessing?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun May 09, 2021 9:55 am

The Ruger 10/22 is favored by Israeli military snipers. They used the standard one (10 round capacity, I Shrugged), but it looks like they've upgraded to a higher capacity version.
"You haven't, I suppose, ever mixed with politicians at close quarters. They're awful. I think some of these must have been the dregs anyhow, but I've discovered, what previously I didn't believe possible, that politicians behave in private life and say exactly the same things as they do in public. Their stupidity is inhuman.
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by mathjak107 » Sun May 09, 2021 11:45 am

Kriegsspiel wrote: ↑
Sun May 09, 2021 9:55 am
The Ruger 10/22 is favored by Israeli military snipers. They used the standard one (10 round capacity, I Shrugged), but it looks like they've upgraded to a higher capacity version.
i have the 10/22 target version with the bull barrel , 5 shot clip though
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Sun May 09, 2021 5:01 pm

Why would anyone need more than 5 round clips? How many deer are you trying to kill simultaneously with your 10/22?
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by SomeDude » Sun May 09, 2021 5:58 pm

tomfoolery wrote: ↑
Sun May 09, 2021 5:01 pm
Why would anyone need more than 5 round clips? How many deer are you trying to kill simultaneously with your 10/22?
Do liberals call magazines "clips" on purpose to annoy regular Americans? As a life long Democrat maybe you can help me with that one.

I suppose it's like when i deliberately confuse star trek and star wars to annoy nerds.
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by mathjak107 » Mon May 10, 2021 4:22 am

tomfoolery wrote: ↑
Sun May 09, 2021 5:01 pm
Why would anyone need more than 5 round clips? How many deer are you trying to kill simultaneously with your 10/22?
You never know when an oil truck may get in the way .

Actually it is not legal to hunt deer here with a .22 ..

When target shooting ,five shots is a pain to deal with as you constantly have waste time reloading since the range officers time each shooting cycle before everyone gets to check their targets and walk out in the field …..
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Re: US gun classifications explained. Funny, true, and sad.

Post by tomfoolery » Mon May 10, 2021 12:32 pm

mathjak107 wrote: ↑
Mon May 10, 2021 4:22 am
tomfoolery wrote: ↑
Sun May 09, 2021 5:01 pm
Why would anyone need more than 5 round clips? How many deer are you trying to kill simultaneously with your 10/22?
When target shooting ,five shots is a pain to deal with as you constantly have waste time reloading since the range officers time each shooting cycle before everyone gets to check their targets and walk out in the field …..
People say liberals are not reasonable and I want to prove them wrong. I see your concern about small clip size. So I propose three solutions:

1) We have the range officers increase the time between shooting cycles so you have more time to load clips.

2) You can have high capacity clips but they can only be used at the gun range and must be locked up and secured at the gun range in their vault between use.

3) The gun range can rent out high capacity clips for your range session and they get returned to their vault after secured inside the range facilities.

See, three easy solutions to let gun owners have their fun but limiting weapons of war on our streets where children play.
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