Labor organization

doodle
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Re: Labor organization

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:18 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:08 am
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:55 am
Oh and our healthcare system is Fu**#*# because American are completely incapable of understanding social contract like every other industrialized nation. What do we pay...twice as much per capita as other western nation's with worse results? Wonderful.
I understand the social construct, I just disagree with it.

Especially when the country is a nation of obese people with terrible diets and poor life choices resulting in poor health. As someone who goes through great effort and expense to take care of their health, it disgusts me that I’m expected to chip in for their health insurance.
This is a complicated topic. A lot of our obesity and health issues are culturally related. I lived in the ghetto for a while flipping houses. Peoples diets are a screwed up mix of few options, bad cultural influences, poor education, ignorance, and plain old stupidity. I also believe food stamps shouldn't be accepted for the purchase of cheetos and shasta cola at the corner food mart.

As far as health insurance Im for plans that incentivize preventative health care and taking responsibility for ones health. There are ways to structure health care that does that. I'm also for structuring health care in such a way that people have coverage for accidents and what not, yet decreasing public coverage for issues related to lifestyle choices after a certain age. This is where democrats need to come to the table and get on the personal responsibility wagon.
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Mountaineer
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Re: Labor organization

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:31 am

Didn’t Bloomberg try banning large sugar drinks in NYC? As I recall, that did not go well. As always, who sets the standards for what is acceptable - Big Bro or the individual? God save us from ourselves, and especially from do-gooders and well intentioned control freaks. >:D
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
doodle
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Re: Labor organization

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:38 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:31 am
Didn’t Bloomberg try banning large sugar drinks in NYC? As I recall, that did not go well. As always, who sets the standards for what is acceptable - Big Bro or the individual? God save us from ourselves, and especially from do-gooders and well intentioned control freaks. >:D
The problem is that as americans we want freedom without responsibility and that notion has been sold to us by both political parties again and again. We need to have a rational dialogue as a nation about how to confront this. What do you advocate mountaineer? If someone has self inflicted type 2 diabetes and doesn't have money for insulin or kidney dialysis yet we have medical facilities that can treat should we put them outside hospital to die? There is no easy solution here. You are just as guilty as the left for not taking this question seriously.
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Re: Labor organization

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:44 am

Take food stamps for example. Should people be able to buy soda with food stamps?

Yes...okay we subsidizing one of key contributors to diabetes.

No...we limiting their freedom to make choices.

No food stamps at all...what about children born in unfortunate circumstances to poor parents or disabled individuals?

I don't see any easy answers...
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Re: Labor organization

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:48 am

Oh, and if you think jesus is going to solve this....I waited tables in college and the Sunday church crowd was some of the worst customers I ever had.
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tomfoolery
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Re: Labor organization

Post by tomfoolery » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:56 am

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:38 am
The problem is that as americans we want freedom without responsibility and that notion has been sold to us by both political parties again and again. We need to have a rational dialogue as a nation about how to confront this. What do you advocate mountaineer? If someone has self inflicted type 2 diabetes and doesn't have money for insulin or kidney dialysis yet we have medical facilities that can treat should we put them outside hospital to die? There is no easy solution here. You are just as guilty as the left for not taking this question seriously.
Freedom always comes with responsibility. It's the liberals who want to reduce the responsibility for people's poor health actions. And both liberals and republicans want to reduce responsibility for business's poor decisions.

Eat shit food, become unhealthy. You assume the responsibility of poor personal health. But democrats want to come in and say that's oky, it's the fault of big corporations that you're fat. Here, take some free healthcare. Take some free gastric bypass surgery. You'd be horrified how many people on Medicaid get free gastric bypass surgery.

And I also hate republicans giving bailouts to banks and airlines and businesses who run poorly.

The answer is simple. Let people die. Let businesses fail. They'll serve as examples for people to avoid that behavior. And the next batch of humans and businesses will be take more personal responsibility and make better decisions.

The alternative is unsustainable. There's not enough resources in the world to bail out everyone and every business who makes risky decisions with asymmetrical risk due to the government put option inherent with all decision making.
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:44 am
Take food stamps for example. Should people be able to buy soda with food stamps?
I don't think food stamps should exist. The onus should be on extended families and charities from local communities. That adds greater accountability for the kind of food they get.

Imagine if Orangeman completely eliminated federal food stamps/SNAP. Would all of those people starve? What would happen tomorrow? I can think of many things that would happen, and none of them involve children dying starving in the streets.
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Re: Labor organization

Post by sophie » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:13 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:31 am
Didn’t Bloomberg try banning large sugar drinks in NYC? As I recall, that did not go well.
No indeedy. I remember there were two problems: first, national chains would have had to deal with NYC-specific menus. but the bigger issue was that someone pointed out that if you wanted to drink twice as much soda as the maximum the law allowed you to buy in one cup, you'd just buy two cups. In other words the law would increase business expenses while not doing anything meaningful to curb sugar intake. That eventually got spun into a you're violating my personal freedom meme.

I'm amazed that it didn't pass all the same. After all, misguided laws that are obviously going to be a disaster get passed here all the time. WItness the recent bail law and the NYPD reductions in the wake of the BLM protests.
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Mountaineer
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Re: Labor organization

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:49 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:48 am
Oh, and if you think jesus is going to solve this....I waited tables in college and the Sunday church crowd was some of the worst customers I ever had.
I take it you don’t believe every last one of us is a sinner? Jesus came to save sinners, not to ban food, not to create heaven on this earth, and not to endorse the self-righteousness or works righteousness as a means to salvation.
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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Mountaineer
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Re: Labor organization

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:57 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:38 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:31 am
Didn’t Bloomberg try banning large sugar drinks in NYC? As I recall, that did not go well. As always, who sets the standards for what is acceptable - Big Bro or the individual? God save us from ourselves, and especially from do-gooders and well intentioned control freaks. >:D
The problem is that as americans we want freedom without responsibility and that notion has been sold to us by both political parties again and again. We need to have a rational dialogue as a nation about how to confront this. What do you advocate mountaineer? < snip >
Tom has a great answer for how to help people who truly need help:
“The onus should be on extended families and charities from local communities. That adds greater accountability for the kind of food they get.”

I would add: Don’t put your trust in princes (government), they will ALWAYS let you down.
I marvel at the creation - its beauty, its endurance, its complexity. I marvel that man can make complex things but is incapable of making even the simplest living organism - a blade of grass, a tree, an ant, an amoeba.
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tomfoolery
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Re: Labor organization

Post by tomfoolery » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:40 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:57 pm

Tom has a great answer for how to help people who truly need help:
“The onus should be on extended families and charities from local communities. That adds greater accountability for the kind of food they get.”
Thanks. If you think about it, it makes sense. Who would make better assistance decisions for you:

a bureaucrat who lives 1200 miles away and you'll never meet

a local charity organizer who lives across the street from you

The only way I can think that people oppose this, is to say that charities wouldn't spring up to make up for lack of government assistance. To which, I wonder why all of the people demanding government help the poor eat, wouldn't take action and help themselves?

Do these kinds of welfare programs like food stamps only work when done at threat of gunpoint and murder to collect funds to redistribute through a federal authority?

Also, if we cut food stamps, we'd have lower taxes. Which means you could work less and have the same standard of living. Which means you'd have more time to work for charities. Or means you could continue working the same number of hours, but your extra money, from the tax cuts, could be donated to food charities.
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Kbg
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Re: Labor organization

Post by Kbg » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:09 am

tomfoolery's posts pretty much validate what I mentioned earlier...Libertarianism is for people who don't believe in engaging with the world as it is but rather as they want it to be. It's completely useless as a practical political policy.

Let's assume we agree with him on Cheeto eating, food stamp using ghetto dwellers.

Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, dementia, multiple sclerosis, cancer, DNA related defects...eat Cheetos and die, it sucks to be you! You should just be "free" like me and then everything is cool.

Let's see...where's my irrelevant bin? <crumpling paper noises> He shoots, back of the rim...he scores!

Utopian quarter flip, heads Libertarianism, tails Communism.
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Re: Labor organization

Post by pugchief » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:33 am

Kbg wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:09 am
tomfoolery's posts pretty much validate what I mentioned earlier...Libertarianism is for people who don't believe in engaging with the world as it is but rather as they want it to be. It's completely useless as a practical political policy.

Let's assume we agree with him on Cheeto eating, food stamp using ghetto dwellers.

Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, dementia, multiple sclerosis, cancer, DNA related defects...eat Cheetos and die, it sucks to be you! You should just be "free" like me and then everything is cool.

Let's see...where's my irrelevant bin? <crumpling paper noises> He shoots, back of the rim...he scores!

Utopian quarter flip, heads Libertarianism, tails Communism.
What's wrong with at least aspiring for utopia? I'll take heads over tails any day of the week.
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