European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Discussion of funds that implement the Permanent Portfolio strategy

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Pfanni
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Pfanni » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:08 am

Why don't you fellow Germans consider the bond A1ZHSE ? Us gov 29 yr. bond.
You can buy/sell at the Frankfurt stock exchange for about 1.2% (brokerage fees, courtage etc.). Zero TER whilst holding, automatic taxation (0% if you are a German with a German brokerage, only automatic Abgeltungssteuer), no hassle...
Comdirect told me they no longer charge fees for US goverment bond payouts.

Biggest advantage, it shields your portfolio somewhat from EUR devaluation.

For stocks, I think I am gonna go for
MSCI World.
Call me biased, but I kinda lost my faith in old Europe..
Harry.Browne
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Harry.Browne » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:19 am

Pfanni wrote: Why don't you fellow Germans consider the bond A1ZHSE ? Us gov 29 yr. bond.
You`re sure with that US Bond?

Banque Federative du Credit Mutuel - BFCM-Anleihe: 2,000% bis 22.05.2024
WKN: A1ZHSE / ISIN: CH0243069280

It`s a corporate Bond

I prefer for Bonds, Euro, no currency risk, triple A Rating for German Bund
Last edited by Harry.Browne on Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
ILoveMoney
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by ILoveMoney » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:52 pm

Harry.Browne wrote: current Price at Stock Stuttgart for EUWAX Gold

Bid = 33,63
Ask = 34,05

Spread = 1,25%

compare with xetra Gold for Example

Bid = 33,60
Ask = 33,64

Spread = 0,12%

cost p.A. = 0,36%

Break even = (1,25% - 0,12%) / 0,36% = 3,14 Years
Thanks. I am so excited about all the money that this is going to save. I figured it would be something in that range. Thanks for sharing the specifics.

Do you monitor the spread regularly though? Or a better question would perhaps be, is there a maximum spread they will never go over? like 2% - 3%...

Also, which long bond ETF would you recommended that does not pay dividends? (I pay about 25% tax on these.)
The three best long bond funds that reinvest the dividends are:

1. Lyxor UCITS ETF (FCP) EuroMTS 15+Y Inv. Grade (DR) EUR
https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile. ... 0010481093 (full replication.)
2. db x-trackers II iBoxx Sov. Eurozone 25+ UCITS ETF 1C
https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile. ... rom=search (synthetic replication.)
3. ComStage iBoxx EUR Liq. Sov. Div. 25+ TR UCITS ETF I
https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-profile. ... rom=search (synthetic replication.)

Thanks. :)
Last edited by ILoveMoney on Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fridolinfritz

Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by fridolinfritz » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:38 pm

HarryBrowne & others: Thanks!

So I think I have all the answers I needed for stocks, gold, and cash.

Regarding bonds:
Harry.Browne wrote: For the pure HBPP I would not make a setup with Wikifolio, i prefer long Bonds from Germany. No Swap no lending.
In a small Portfolio, you have a higher risk with one ISIN for the whole Position of Bonds. It takes a time to build a Bond Ladder.
So in my (maybe naive) thinking, I could just go out and buy DE0001102341 (the bond with longest time to maturity; found on this very handy PDF for german govt bonds: http://www.deutsche-finanzagentur.de/fi ... abelle.pdf) and then mark my calendar for the year 2026 when it reaches 20 years to maturity and sell it, but a new 30 year bond with the proceeds.

Is building a bond ladder as simple as that or did I miss anything?

(Maybe) Off Topic:

When reading the german govt web pages (deutsche-finanzagentur.de) I learned about stripping: http://www.deutsche-finanzagentur.de/in ... sanleihen/ (all the way at the bottom; english speakers can switch this web page to english at the top!)

It seems you can trade the debt separately from its interest coupons (speaking in layman's terms). Does that make any sense for the permanent portfolio? Since the permanent portfolio is for capital growth, not passive (interest & dividend) income, it might make sense to buy a bond that does not pay interest, no?

So, is this comparable to "ausschüttend" vs. "thesaurierend" in fonds terms, but only for bonds? If yes, does the stripped bond have higher appreciation that the one that pays interest? Also, what would be the ISINs for the stripped bonds, I can't find them anywhere. Would be interesting to put them on a chart together with their non-stripped counterparts.


Would love to read any informed opinion on this, thank you! (As I said, I am a newbie to the investment world.)
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Harry.Browne » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:37 pm

The Spread ist not allways as High as i Post. You van try with a Limit Order.

If you Don`t want distribution, Comstage is the only one.

The other cummulate the Money to, nur have a close look at Bundesanzeiger.de
The generate year by year “ausschüttungsgleiche Erträge“ This you have to deklare to Tax on Yourself
and then you pay 25 Percent each year.

Comstage, you pay only, when you sell it. Tax will be deferred until you sell.
Then you pay Abgeltungssteuer for the gain.
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Pfanni » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:14 am

Sorry, typo..

A1ZSHE is the bond.
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by frugal » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:14 am

Harry.Browne wrote: The Spread ist not allways as High as i Post. You van try with a Limit Order.

If you Don`t want distribution, Comstage is the only one.

The other cummulate the Money to, nur have a close look at Bundesanzeiger.de
The generate year by year “ausschüttungsgleiche Erträge“ This you have to deklare to Tax on Yourself
and then you pay 25 Percent each year.

Comstage, you pay only, when you sell it. Tax will be deferred until you sell.
Then you pay Abgeltungssteuer for the gain.
Hi,

X509

is the Comstage bonds ticker?
Harry.Browne wrote: current Price at Stock Stuttgart for EUWAX Gold

Bid = 33,63
Ask = 34,05

Spread = 1,25%

compare with xetra Gold for Example

Bid = 33,60
Ask = 33,64

Spread = 0,12%

cost p.A. = 0,36%

Break even = (1,25% - 0,12%) / 0,36% = 3,14 Years
Is this ETF safe ?

Thank you!
Live healthy, live actively and live life!
Harry.Browne
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Harry.Browne » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:45 am

The Bond ETF:
ISIN LU0444606619
Xetra Kürzel X509
Reuters RIC CBIBOXS25T.DE
Bloomberg CBOXES25 GY EQUITY

Euwax Gold:
Dear Frugal,

what is save in this World? This bearer bond is 100% covered with physical Gold.
The Gold is hold in Germany in a vault, on Demand yon can order your Gold (min. 100gr)
and Boerse Stuttgart Securities GmbH is delivering without costs within Germany.

If you don`t trust the Boerse Stuttgart Securities GmbH, you should`t buy Euwax Gold.
Then you should´t buy any ETF, buy Bullions and deposit them at Home in a Safe.

Current Spread 0,58% at Stock Stuttgart
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frugal
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by frugal » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:23 am

Harry.Browne wrote:
frugal wrote: Hello German friends  :)

I am looking for the most solid broker or institution in EUROPE.

What is your top list?

Regards.
What ist your Preferences?

Low costs, AAA+ Rating, 24/7 reachable or all of that? You can not answer This Question seriously.


Hello HB sorry to remind you,

if you can tell me a list of the best one on each feature it would be excellent.

Warmest regards.
Live healthy, live actively and live life!
Harry.Browne
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Harry.Browne » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:38 am

I can only give an advice for Broker under the Law of Germany

www.brokervergleich.de

If you are sure with TAX handling, you can use http://www.brokervergleich.de/lynx/ or http://www.brokervergleich.de/captrader/

Very smart is https://www.interactivebrokers.com

Wich possibility you have, as a Portuguese Citizen, I don´t know.
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by Harry.Browne » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:14 pm

fridolinfritz wrote:

(Maybe) Off Topic:

When reading the german govt web pages (deutsche-finanzagentur.de) I learned about stripping: http://www.deutsche-finanzagentur.de/in ... sanleihen/ (all the way at the bottom; english speakers can switch this web page to english at the top!)

It seems you can trade the debt separately from its interest coupons (speaking in layman's terms). Does that make any sense for the permanent portfolio? Since the permanent portfolio is for capital growth, not passive (interest & dividend) income, it might make sense to buy a bond that does not pay interest, no?

So, is this comparable to "ausschüttend" vs. "thesaurierend" in fonds terms, but only for bonds? If yes, does the stripped bond have higher appreciation that the one that pays interest? Also, what would be the ISINs for the stripped bonds, I can't find them anywhere. Would be interesting to put them on a chart together with their non-stripped counterparts.


Would love to read any informed opinion on this, thank you! (As I said, I am a newbie to the investment world.)
For further information
http://www.bundesbank.de/Navigation/DE/ ... pping.html

Stripped bonds with childlock 50000 Euro
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Re: European/German Permanent Portfolio on wikifolio - good/bad?

Post by ILoveMoney » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:45 pm

Got a reply from the Euwax folks on the maximum bid/ask spread.

Here's what they told me.
There is no definition of a maximum spread.

Nevertheless the issuer is anxious to offer the etc-product with a spread of not higher than 1,2%, with trying not to exceed 1,5%.
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