Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by pmward » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:29 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:11 am
But, the fact that anyone is even talking about it makes me very happy to own some gold! If seeking alpha is right, the value of gold would shoot up. After which...not sure it would make any sense to own it, except to guard against going back off the gold standard.
If we ever went back on a gold standard I don't think it would be the same as before. I think it would be a hybrid system in some way. Either that would be maybe a yearly revalue of gold to dollars, or they just allow the Fed to break the peg anytime they needed to inject liquidity in a crisis. Or, maybe they even let gold and the dollar both continue to float as a free market and honor the price at the current market value. Either way, I think if (and a very, very slim *if*) politicians ever decided to go back on a gold standard it would look different than before, and would still be likely worth holding gold. I don't think we would ever truly consider going back on a gold standard bar an inflationary crisis of some kind. At the moment, the dollar still holds public faith (probably too much so), and until that faith is broken and people become mass sellers of dollars, there is just no reason they would ever consider it. The government is reactionary not proactive.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:48 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:51 am
ochotona wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:48 pm
Kbg wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:55 pm
Don’t forget, we have money so people don’t have to exchange real stuff. As much as we all like to complain about it, it is truly one of mankind’s great inventions. The digital version that for all intents and purposes is the latest iteration of a centuries old concept is amazing. Every time I step back from it I find it marvelous. I go to work for 40 hours and I get some digits in my bank account. Then I go online to Amazon and click on a button, some digits leave my bank account, and some actual real stuff shows up at my door two days later.

Seriously! It is amazing.
That's why it's so destructive in a modern specialized economy for the people to lose faith in the currency and resort to barter. Transactions become impossible. Dr. Lacy Hunt talked about this a few days ago on Macrovoices.com podcast, that would be the end result of MMT in his opinion.
People like barter because it keeps the transactions out of the 'system', thus avoiding taxation.
Sure, so long as you are cool with limiting your options to people you know or people who know people you know and as limited by those peoples' ability to pack, transport and exchange whatever it is you are exchanging. Given where I live, if I like bananas and coffee in the morning I'm screwed in a barter system.

You get what you "barter" for. (Pun intended)
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Tortoise » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:55 pm
Don’t forget, we have money so people don’t have to exchange real stuff. As much as we all like to complain about it, it is truly one of mankind’s great inventions. The digital version that for all intents and purposes is the latest iteration of a centuries old concept is amazing. Every time I step back from it I find it marvelous. I go to work for 40 hours and I get some digits in my bank account. Then I go online to Amazon and click on a button, some digits leave my bank account, and some actual real stuff shows up at my door two days later.

Seriously! It is amazing.
Transactions in a gold-backed currency wouldn't all have to take the form of gold being physically handed from the buyer to the seller. Convenient electronic transactions would still be a thing.
boglerdude wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:34 am
A gold standard is not just gold as money, its gold combined with legal tender laws that force you to use gold as the only money. So the more gold you bury in your yard, the more its worth as the supply shrinks and other money is illegal.
The same argument applies to physical cash. But in any case, it's not a good argument since the stuff you buried is only worth something to you (in terms of goods or services) if you eventually spend it -- at which point it's no longer buried in your yard.

It's always seemed like such a silly argument to me that under a gold standard, people would just hoard gold until it all disappeared. That would never happen, because certain spending isn't discretionary. People always have to spend something to meet their basic needs (food, water, shelter, clothing, etc.), so that sets a floor on the amount of gold that would have to change hands under any conditions.
boglerdude wrote: And how to collect taxes when its easily hidden?
Again, the same argument applies to physical cash. And people are already able to use gold and physical cash to hide assets from the tax authorities :)
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by boglerdude » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:30 am

If gold is the only money, its purchasing power increases with time as more stuff is produced but the supply of gold stays the same. So you spend what gold you must, and bury the rest for a risk free return. Cash burns up at the inflation rate, forcing people to take risk and invest the money. Good for innovation.

Originally, currency was just blank paper and you'd write "I owe Joe 3 pumpkins" on it. Why should that paper be scarce? That would slow the economy (transactions). Then we transitioned to a system where the paper itself has value, it was redeemable for X ounces of gold.

Gold was chosen because its supply is stable, so you can measure everything against it. If Ford doubles the supply of cars for sale next year, they're each worth half as much gold as last year. That deflation helps consumers.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:48 am

All forms of money have value solely because people believe it does, including gold. One of the best, most innovative podcasts I've very listened to is Freakonomics "Why Gold?" Highly recommended.

Nothing to do with the podcast, but in the ancient world, bronze, silver and gold were all valued and used as money. Try going anywhere with some bronze in your pocket and see if you could get anything for it (other than a salvage yard) today.

Assuming SHTF doesn't happen and technology continues to roll, in the future on I could easily see all three of the above being nothing but nice decorative or industrial metals with no monetary value as a stand alone feature. Personally, I think silver is a good way there already.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:29 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:48 am
All forms of money have value solely because people believe it does, including gold. One of the best, most innovative podcasts I've very listened to is Freakonomics "Why Gold?" Highly recommended.
no doubt....value only lives in our (people's) collective mind.

Competing currencies to the US dollar are not illegal...people are free to use whatever currency they choose... If you want a gold standard.....put yourself on a gold standard. Lead by example...encourage others to accept your gold. You cant wait for government to come around....they have no incentive. Create a competing gold standard paper or digital currency.....liberty is taken, not given! (unfortunately) <--If this is too much work, then embrace the next closest thing that currently exists.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:56 pm

If you think coming up with an alternative form of money will bring liberty you are seriously deluded and need to read more history...power will come to it and take it over. Those guys are normally the ones with the biggest rocks, spears, guns etc.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:47 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:56 pm
If you think coming up with an alternative form of money will bring liberty you are seriously deluded and need to read more history...power will come to it and take it over. Those guys are normally the ones with the biggest rocks, spears, guns etc.

Is gold not an alternative form of money to the US dollar? Does it not provide its holder liberty outside spying government eyes?

Anyway.....my “liberty is taken” comment was more directed at people expecting government to do or give them something. (in this case a gold standard).
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:01 pm

gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:47 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:56 pm
If you think coming up with an alternative form of money will bring liberty you are seriously deluded and need to read more history...power will come to it and take it over. Those guys are normally the ones with the biggest rocks, spears, guns etc.

Is gold not an alternative form of money to the US dollar? Does it not provide its holder liberty outside spying government eyes?

Anyway.....my “liberty is taken” comment was more directed at people expecting government to do or give them something. (in this case a gold standard).
No it is not in the United States unless it us a US Eagle and you would be pretty stupid to spend it at its face value. To convince yourself of my correctness go to any business that is not a pawn shop/coin dealer/precious metals dealer and see what you can buy with the gold you bring in (try Walmart or McDonalds, they're ubiquitous and easy to find).

By the way, what's wrong with people expecting the government to give them something when they pay taxes? I expect my government to do lots of stuff for me in exchange for my tax money. Preferably they do so efficiently and effectively but sometimes that's a stretch. They do pick up my garbage every week for $21.25 a month and I find that service a great deal for the money. I also like the electricity they brought out to my grandfather's farm in the 1940s which I now get to use for a fee. It is way better than the crappy and very expensive rural internet I pay for provided by the private sector. (I should probably get off now as it's metered too.)
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Sun May 05, 2019 7:50 pm

Tn,

With respect, you are just flat wrong on several points concerning paper money. Financial crises were far more frequent in earlier times and usually more severe on average. Additionally, very few economic crises have anything to do with money per se. They are almost always caused by something more fundamental and real.

Be careful where you get your info on gold and money, inevitably (surprise) the stuff you were spouting sounds like it comes from people who sell gold...

Riddle me this: Why doesn’t anyone use the gold standard anymore? Conspiracy theories not allowed. Actual historical facts and contemporary statements required.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:50 pm
Tn,

With respect, you are just flat wrong on several points concerning paper money. Financial crises were far more frequent in earlier times and usually more severe on average. Additionally, very few economic crises have anything to do with money per se. They are almost always caused by something more fundamental and real.

Be careful where you get your info on gold and money, inevitably (surprise) the stuff you were spouting sounds like it comes from people who sell gold...

Riddle me this: Why doesn’t anyone use the gold standard anymore? Conspiracy theories not allowed. Actual historical facts and contemporary statements required.
The reason that no government uses the gold standard is that it prevents them from stealing people's wealth by stealth.

That is not a conspiracy theory, but a fact.

However, I don't debate with people who use such tactics, so you are blocked.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Hal » Mon May 06, 2019 12:50 am

Kbg wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:50 pm
Tn,

With respect, you are just flat wrong on several points concerning paper money. Financial crises were far more frequent in earlier times and usually more severe on average. Additionally, very few economic crises have anything to do with money per se. They are almost always caused by something more fundamental and real.

Be careful where you get your info on gold and money, inevitably (surprise) the stuff you were spouting sounds like it comes from people who sell gold...

Riddle me this: Why doesn’t anyone use the gold standard anymore? Conspiracy theories not allowed. Actual historical facts and contemporary statements required.
For the answer of a metallic standard vs fiat currency, have a read from pg 75 where the title is: "A greenbacker".

https://archive.org/details/coinsfinanc ... ial+school

The book was written back in the 1890's, so it was in the Gold Standard days.

<edit: title>
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Thu May 09, 2019 12:10 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:50 pm
Tn,

With respect, you are just flat wrong on several points concerning paper money. Financial crises were far more frequent in earlier times and usually more severe on average. Additionally, very few economic crises have anything to do with money per se. They are almost always caused by something more fundamental and real.

Be careful where you get your info on gold and money, inevitably (surprise) the stuff you were spouting sounds like it comes from people who sell gold...

Riddle me this: Why doesn’t anyone use the gold standard anymore? Conspiracy theories not allowed. Actual historical facts and contemporary statements required.
The reason that no government uses the gold standard is that it prevents them from stealing people's wealth by stealth.

That is not a conspiracy theory, but a fact.

However, I don't debate with people who use such tactics, so you are blocked.
Tn,

How is it stolen and to whom do the benefits and costs go from inflation?

Am I stealing from the bank that decided to give me a 30 year fixed rate loan? Am I benefiting from it now or still getting my clock cleaned?

But if you are going to assert inflation is always a detriment, pray tell why is a deflationary hard currency crisis a good thing and how am I benefitted by one more than low grade inflation.

Or do you prefer an ostrich approach to life?

I hold gold as a part of a diversified portfolio, but the vast amount of information you get fed from the gold coinage industry is pure crap and does not survive an unbiased analysis of which there are many both as a financial asset and an historical monetary basis instrument.

Fact: In the modern world money is money because an internationally recognized government says it is.

Test question: What do we quote the value of gold in? Last time I checked I haven’t been able to find a quote for 17.5 lbs of green colored paper with dead US presidents on it per 1oz of gold metal.

Second test question: If you are running a gold bullion selling/ storage business, why in the world would you accept a list of 1s and 0s over the internet and send actual real gold to someone? It seems the height of foley to me.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by boglerdude » Thu May 09, 2019 10:08 pm

Goldbugs/libertarians dont do nuance. They are always good, and government's always bad.

But to steelman, I went to good schools and no one ever explained the inflation tax. Mostly the fault of my parents, but still

edit: Free market money might be ideal, if everyone were rational...
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Mon May 13, 2019 3:28 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:10 pm

Tn,

How is it stolen and to whom do the benefits and costs go from inflation? ANSWER: Inflation steals from savers.....it discourages saving as the dollar becomes worth less over time....therefore encouraging spending, investing & debt....therefore "benefiting" the economy and punishing savers.

Am I stealing from the bank that decided to give me a 30 year fixed rate loan? ANSWER: not if you agreed to it. Am I benefiting from it now or still getting my clock cleaned?....ANSWER: Is your loan interest amortization denominated in an inflationary based currency (ex. US dollar) and economy? If yes, you and lender both win. Is your loan interest amortization denominated in an deflationary based currency (ex. BTC) in a inflationary based economy? If yes, this would be terrible to borrowers and great for lenders & savers.

But if you are going to assert inflation is always a detriment, pray tell why is a deflationary hard currency crisis a good thing and how am I benefitted by one more than low grade inflation. ANSWER: Inflation is not always bad....its great holding debt in an inflationary currency and economy. A deflationary currency encourages / rewards saving, discourages debt / borrowing....the perfect currency to hold if you live in an inflationary based economy.


Fact: In the modern world money is money because an internationally recognized government says it is. Correct-ish, however there are alternatives outside of government issued money......ultimately people give money / currency value.

Test question: What do we quote the value of gold in? Last time I checked I haven’t been able to find a quote for 17.5 lbs of green colored paper with dead US presidents on it per 1oz of gold metal. ANSWER: US dollar. as it is the most widely used currency by people....due to its perceived stable value amongst people.

Second test question: If you are running a gold bullion selling/ storage business, why in the world would you accept a list of 1s and 0s over the internet and send actual real gold to someone? It seems the height of foley to me. ANSWER: Ease of acceptance. If US dollar denominated and you reside in US.... taxes and paying vendors make it more desirable…..i.e. paying other people.



Bottom line.... Accept that we live in an inflationary currency based economy. (US dollar) This will not change anytime soon....therefore exploit it's weaknesses and utilize its attributes for your own benefit.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Tue May 14, 2019 9:10 am

gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:28 pm
Kbg wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:10 pm

Tn,

How is it stolen and to whom do the benefits and costs go from inflation? ANSWER: Inflation steals from savers.....it discourages saving as the dollar becomes worth less over time....therefore encouraging spending, investing & debt....therefore "benefiting" the economy and punishing savers.

Am I stealing from the bank that decided to give me a 30 year fixed rate loan? ANSWER: not if you agreed to it. Am I benefiting from it now or still getting my clock cleaned?....ANSWER: Is your loan interest amortization denominated in an inflationary based currency (ex. US dollar) and economy? If yes, you and lender both win. Is your loan interest amortization denominated in an deflationary based currency (ex. BTC) in a inflationary based economy? If yes, this would be terrible to borrowers and great for lenders & savers.

But if you are going to assert inflation is always a detriment, pray tell why is a deflationary hard currency crisis a good thing and how am I benefitted by one more than low grade inflation. ANSWER: Inflation is not always bad....its great holding debt in an inflationary currency and economy. A deflationary currency encourages / rewards saving, discourages debt / borrowing....the perfect currency to hold if you live in an inflationary based economy.


Fact: In the modern world money is money because an internationally recognized government says it is. Correct-ish, however there are alternatives outside of government issued money......ultimately people give money / currency value.

Test question: What do we quote the value of gold in? Last time I checked I haven’t been able to find a quote for 17.5 lbs of green colored paper with dead US presidents on it per 1oz of gold metal. ANSWER: US dollar. as it is the most widely used currency by people....due to its perceived stable value amongst people.

Second test question: If you are running a gold bullion selling/ storage business, why in the world would you accept a list of 1s and 0s over the internet and send actual real gold to someone? It seems the height of foley to me. ANSWER: Ease of acceptance. If US dollar denominated and you reside in US.... taxes and paying vendors make it more desirable…..i.e. paying other people.



Bottom line.... Accept that we live in an inflationary currency based economy. (US dollar) This will not change anytime soon....therefore exploit it's weaknesses and utilize its attributes for your own benefit.


1. Wrong. That's why we have "real" interest rates. Without real interest rates no one in their right mind would save anything. And this does not change in a fixed monetary system.

2. Why did you duck answering the hardest question I put to you? Read up on on the 1930s and provide the answer. The burden for his one is on you if you are going to assert it, defend it.

3. Wow, seriously? John Maynard Keynes...Paradox of Thrift. OK, I'm going to answer the question you failed to just above. The paradox of thrift is an actual documented and studied phenomena and when it gets started it drives people into becoming ever more impoverished with an economy that continues to contract as money gets hoarded. You probably hate the welfare state as well. Guess what, this is exactly why we have a welfare state in the US now. (Let that one sink in for a bit...it's 100% true.) Rational people will do nothing BUT save as anything else is irrational. And ta da...that's why no responsible central bank or country implements a fixed base currency. Even Bitcoin's inventors recognized this and that's why it's "mined" so that it can grow. Simply put, you have two devils to chose from. Fixed base or fiat monetary systems. The later is generally recognized in the mainstream as the greater devil. Oh by the way, there is a ton of historical examples of metal based monetary system devaluation. All the government has to do is say: Our new gold money piece is now 25% lead vs. 2%.

4. You got me there...there is a .005% fringe I could barter or do some other alternative monetary system with. However, my friend, you still fail the Walmart test. My credit card does not. For everyday life, I chose the 99.995% usability path.

5. Good to know we agree on something. :-)

6. Ditto #5

(Sorry I have no idea why this is all bold)
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:47 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:10 am

1. Wrong. That's why we have "real" interest rates. Without real interest rates no one in their right mind would save anything. And this does not change in a fixed monetary system.

2. Why did you duck answering the hardest question I put to you? Read up on on the 1930s and provide the answer. The burden for his one is on you if you are going to assert it, defend it.

3. Wow, seriously? John Maynard Keynes...Paradox of Thrift. OK, I'm going to answer the question you failed to just above. The paradox of thrift is an actual documented and studied phenomena and when it gets started it drives people into becoming ever more impoverished with an economy that continues to contract as money gets hoarded. You probably hate the welfare state as well. Guess what, this is exactly why we have a welfare state in the US now. (Let that one sink in for a bit...it's 100% true.) Rational people will do nothing BUT save as anything else is irrational. And ta da...that's why no responsible central bank or country implements a fixed base currency. Even Bitcoin's inventors recognized this and that's why it's "mined" so that it can grow. Simply put, you have two devils to chose from. Fixed base or fiat monetary systems. The later is generally recognized in the mainstream as the greater devil. Oh by the way, there is a ton of historical examples of metal based monetary system devaluation. All the government has to do is say: Our new gold money piece is now 25% lead vs. 2%.

4. You got me there...there is a .005% fringe I could barter or do some other alternative monetary system with. However, my friend, you still fail the Walmart test. My credit card does not. For everyday life, I chose the 99.995% usability path.

5. Good to know we agree on something. :-)

6. Ditto #5

(Sorry I have no idea why this is all bold)

1. Sorry I do not understand your answer...please provide your answer to your question if you would please.....trying to understand your point. Are you saying real interest rates negate my answer? (or are the solution)?

2. no defense here.....(FYI....I hate gold (physical / non divisible properties)....but hold it like you) My simplistic answer /understanding is it was not one (1) thing....but a culmination of several stacked irresponsible behaviors / practices of lenders / banks and government mingling.

3. We wont agree here...thats fine. I lean toward Austrian Economics. To me it seems VERY unreasonable, delusional to believe that a person or group of people (government) can "control" an economy within target boundaries based upon millions of individuals.... Yes Bitcoin is inflationary (for now) until the year ~2140.....at which point all coins will be mined. Its inflation schedule halves every 4 years until then. Once again.....bad actors were the causes of many currency collapses….that's the point! Corruption will find its way into anything if given human influence / control.

4. you don't get to dictate where I spend my money....you force me to go to Walmart? Why cant I shop at pawn shops / jewelers with gold (I wont by the way), or Whole Foods, starbucks, whoever else with BTC? FYI.....I choose ease of use as well....the point is....we are moving toward a muti-currency world whether you like it or not. The dollar has been losing its world reserve status well over a decade.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm

1. I'm saying inflation does not of itself discourage savers unless a positive real rate of return is not achievable. No doubt negative real rates do happen from time to time and that does tend to discourage saving (or so we thought...but now we have negative yielding sovereign bonds.)

2. "Responsible" central banking in today's world generally means low inflation with jobs. Not too hot, not too cold.

3. Explain to me why gold fixes human corruption? I'm guessing about the same time humans figured out this invention called money another set were figuring out how to manipulate it.

4. I'm not dictating what you do in any way shape or form. I'm just pointing out physical gold is not usable at Walmart to purchase what is on their shelves because they won't take it. This is a metaphor that means physical gold is not legal tender in the U.S. and other than pawn shops and gold dealers you can't do anything with it as compared to what actually is money. For people living in the United States it is almost irrelevant that we are going to a multi-currency world. We've been living in one for several hundred years. If you live in the US you A) better have some US coins/bills or B) an electronic account that is in US dollars or will convert to them on your demand to US accepted 1s and 0s.

But I think you are missing my main point which is: Money in the modern world is what a government decides is money for the piece of turf on this earth they control. What gold fans refuse to recognize is that in reality it has always been this way and that gold can be debased by a government almost as easily as can paper money. Pretty much the only times this is not the case is when the government has lost control of its populace.

If it has lost control well who knows what will be "money" and gold/silver is probably a good first guess to posture for if you are so inclined.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by boglerdude » Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm

It might be simpler to forget gold/bitcoin, and first wonder what would happen if the Fed disabled their (digital) printing press
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:30 am

boglerdude wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm
It might be simpler to forget gold/bitcoin, and first wonder what would happen if the Fed disabled their (digital) printing press
Good idea... thought experiment!.....Rules
1. so gold / bitcoin never existed before as currency nor will they.
2. US government made mandatory tax payments be collected in US dollars or else people (government employees) with guns come to take your freedom. <-- this greatly encourages people to adopt a government currency as their freedom is at stake....so it therefore has a perceived value!
3. Once US dollar has established adoption / acceptance ~100years?? or so the Fed shuts down.
4. Now we have fixed money supply. What does the economy do going forward? Short term (1-10 years) 2. Mid term: (10-50 years) 3. Long Term (50+ years)


My thoughts....Short term economy S**t's itself as dollars are now harder to get and our economy is addicted to debt. The contraction of "money" supply lost would be unfathomable. (as most money in circulation is lent into existence) - Mid term - day-to day life has settled...prices have reset to accommodate current economy / market conditions. Long term - Removing any other human / government interference the free market goes through its natural cycles. good or bad. <-- this is where ethical / humane values /beliefs difference in opinions come into play...not an easy subject / solution....
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Wed May 15, 2019 8:37 am

boglerdude wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm
It might be simpler to forget gold/bitcoin, and first wonder what would happen if the Fed disabled their (digital) printing press
Indeed. I've mentioned this elsewhere but I think it would be interesting to fast forward 50-100 years to see what becomes standard monetary theory. The former theory is not fitting reality very well post GFC and I think will eventually be overturned
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm
1. I'm saying inflation does not of itself discourage savers unless a positive real rate of return is not achievable. No doubt negative real rates do happen from time to time and that does tend to discourage saving (or so we thought...but now we have negative yielding sovereign bonds.)

2. "Responsible" central banking in today's world generally means low inflation with jobs. Not too hot, not too cold.

3. Explain to me why gold fixes human corruption? I'm guessing about the same time humans figured out this invention called money another set were figuring out how to manipulate it.

4. I'm not dictating what you do in any way shape or form. I'm just pointing out physical gold is not usable at Walmart to purchase what is on their shelves because they won't take it. This is a metaphor that means physical gold is not legal tender in the U.S. and other than pawn shops and gold dealers you can't do anything with it as compared to what actually is money. For people living in the United States it is almost irrelevant that we are going to a multi-currency world. We've been living in one for several hundred years. If you live in the US you A) better have some US coins/bills or B) an electronic account that is in US dollars or will convert to them on your demand to US accepted 1s and 0s.

But I think you are missing my main point which is: Money in the modern world is what a government decides is money for the piece of turf on this earth they control. What gold fans refuse to recognize is that in reality it has always been this way and that gold can be debased by a government almost as easily as can paper money. Pretty much the only times this is not the case is when the government has lost control of its populace.

If it has lost control well who knows what will be "money" and gold/silver is probably a good first guess to posture for if you are so inclined.

1. Gotcha!...understand what your saying now.
2. Agree....this assumes "Responsible" is a constant (which history has shown to not be the case due to bad actors at some point). But agree.
3. It does not...and I won't try to say it will. The only thing Gold has is scarcity and hard to replicate (counterfeit)...that's about it.
4. I understand your point / agree.....I would rather personally rather have currency that is unmanipulatlable. I'm a PP'r…..I love diversity! I will hold Dollars, Gold and BTC. I can go anywhere in the world and someone will accept one these.
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
Kbg
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am

gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
No manipulation for personal/organizational gain going on here...I'm sure. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
gaddyslapper007
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am
gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
No manipulation for personal/organizational gain going on here...I'm sure. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
Its not manipulation….the bitcoin ledger is still what it always has been! (individuals did not lose in the BTC & BCash fork event....they got more "free" money (BCash).) Yes, the individuals who forked their own blockchain (Bcash) may have tried for personal gain.....but it did not affect BTC. Being a free market it comes with the territory....im ok / encourage that. Bcash "could" be an improvement to BTC (its not)....it wouldn't matter either way because if you held BTC at the time of the fork you received the equivalent in Bcash. That "manipulation" made every BTC holder more wealthy....the opposite is case with any other "manipulated" currency". (individuals get screwed ..government / market makers makes win)

I don't think you are being mean at all....its a called a discussion. But don't pat yourself on the back so quickly when you think you "know" about BTC. You've proven to me twice in this thread to not have deep understanding of it. <-- not intended as insult...but an observation.
gaddyslapper007
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:44 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am
gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
No manipulation for personal/organizational gain going on here...I'm sure. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
FYI.....thanks for all thoughts and inputs throughout this chat forum! You are one of my top respected peeps I have on here to learn from....and you have shaped my mind /portfolio over the years. Please do not think I engage in this discussion for malicious purpose ...other than to getting inside your mind for your thoughts! thanks again for all your contributions!
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