Gold taxation thoughts

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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ochotona
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:24 pm

Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).

Billing Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
GoldStar Trust IRA #9999999
P.O. Box 179
Canyon , Texas, 79015
United States

Shipping Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
Delaware Depository Services Co
3601 North Market Street
Wilmington, Delaware, 79015
United States
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technovelist
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:26 am

ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).

Billing Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
GoldStar Trust IRA #9999999
P.O. Box 179
Canyon , Texas, 79015
United States

Shipping Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
Delaware Depository Services Co
3601 North Market Street
Wilmington, Delaware, 79015
United States
Whenever my Swiss franc annuity cashout money comes into my Fidelity account, I'll be doing the same. Thanks!
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technovelist
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by technovelist » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:56 am

technovelist wrote:
ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).

Billing Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
GoldStar Trust IRA #9999999
P.O. Box 179
Canyon , Texas, 79015
United States

Shipping Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
Delaware Depository Services Co
3601 North Market Street
Wilmington, Delaware, 79015
United States
Whenever my Swiss franc annuity cashout money comes into my Fidelity account, I'll be doing the same. Thanks!
I finally got that money so I'm working on getting the Goldstar IRA set up. Thanks again for the info!
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ochotona
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:26 pm

Be a little patient concerning how long it takes the metal to post into the account. My metals got to Delaware Depository on Friday, they posted the following Wednesday, which was slow for me, I'm generally impatient. Other than that, no problems.
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technovelist
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:12 am

ochotona wrote:Be a little patient concerning how long it takes the metal to post into the account. My metals got to Delaware Depository on Friday, they posted the following Wednesday, which was slow for me, I'm generally impatient. Other than that, no problems.
Ok, but since I'm planning to buy something that is already in the Delaware depository (if feasible), it should take less time.

They have already opened the account even though I only applied today, so that part at least is quite fast.

Fidelity is actually going to be one of the limiting factors because they require a physical form to transfer assets from a "non-prototype" account to an IRA rollover. However, that should only be necessary a couple of times.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Mr Vacuum » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:41 pm

ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
Unlike most investments, metal ETFs are exempt from the wash sale rule limiting losses on securities sold and then immediately repurchased. Robert Gordon, president of Twenty-First Securities, explains: The IRS, avid to collect the higher collectible-rate tax, has decreed that the metal funds are not “securities.” But the wash sale statute applies only to “securities.”
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Xan
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:00 pm

Mr Vacuum wrote:
ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
Unlike most investments, metal ETFs are exempt from the wash sale rule limiting losses on securities sold and then immediately repurchased. Robert Gordon, president of Twenty-First Securities, explains: The IRS, avid to collect the higher collectible-rate tax, has decreed that the metal funds are not “securities.” But the wash sale statute applies only to “securities.”
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Mr Vacuum » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:20 pm

Xan wrote: I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
Gotcha. Hitting the streets with coins to do a rebuy steps up the activation energy a level or two vs. trading ETFs in the bathrobe, IMHO.
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technovelist
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:55 pm

Xan wrote:
Mr Vacuum wrote:
ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
Unlike most investments, metal ETFs are exempt from the wash sale rule limiting losses on securities sold and then immediately repurchased. Robert Gordon, president of Twenty-First Securities, explains: The IRS, avid to collect the higher collectible-rate tax, has decreed that the metal funds are not “securities.” But the wash sale statute applies only to “securities.”
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
I have done that a couple of times but wash sale rules wouldn't have been involved anyway because my sale was at a profit.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:04 pm

technovelist wrote:
Xan wrote:
Mr Vacuum wrote:
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
I have done that a couple of times but wash sale rules wouldn't have been involved anyway because my sale was at a profit.
That may be what I'm thinking of.
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technovelist
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:40 pm

Xan wrote:
technovelist wrote:
Xan wrote:
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
I have done that a couple of times but wash sale rules wouldn't have been involved anyway because my sale was at a profit.
That may be what I'm thinking of.
I'm pretty sure that the wash sale rule doesn't apply to metals.

But if you're still worried about selling at a loss and then buying back, just buy something else, like a different coin. People do that all the time with similar but non-identical stock ETFs.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by sophie » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:32 am

I can confirm that the wash sale rules don't apply. I researched IRS rules, then tax loss harvested gold Eagles through APMEX in 2013. Per the guy I talked to on the phone, they were doing a ton of those transactions at the time. I had to mail them coins and get them mailed right back though.
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