Gold taxation thoughts

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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Libertarian666
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:04 am

ochotona wrote:
barrett wrote:OK, got it. I'll turn 59.5 in a couple of months and plan on taking advantage of that 12% bracket to do some Roth conversions over the next few year, if they make sense given my wife's income (which varies from year to year).

....

Basically, I like the idea of holding some gold in every account.
YES, the next eight years are a great time to take advantage of what might be a temporary rollback in tax rates and convert Trad IRA to Roth IRA!

To change the topic slightly, I stumbled into the fee schedule for the GoldStar gold IRA, they only charge a $175 total annual fee for a $100,000 account, 17.5 basis points. That includes storage. That's lower than any gold ETF. I stumbled into that one yesterday. That is cheaper than buying the next increment of safe deposit box insurance, my insurance is fully utilized, and I can't buy any more physical gold until I buy the next increment.

I'm serious thinking of taking my SGOL (39 basis points) holding at Schwab and flinging it over to GoldStar and saving money immediately and having real metal. They work with my favorite PM dealer.
Thanks, that sounds very good!
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:40 am

So far, the gold IRA process is going well. The new custodian is going to oversee an in-kind transfer of SGOL from Schwab to their broker, US Bank, then I'll put in a sell order, and call the dealer and buy the metal after the cash is confirmed, so little or no time not being in my gold position. Hopefully less than a day. It's all transparent, with trusted (as far as you can trust your gold dealer, Schwab, and US Bank) public actors. The custodian doesn't own anything, they are just the traffic cop. It's fine.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Jack Jones » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:44 pm

Cortopassi wrote:Physical.

I have yet only bought from the local coin dealer, and have never sold. But I have seen people bring in coins to sell back. I've not seen any forms ever exchange hands. I'll leave it at that.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:31 am

ochotona wrote:So far, the gold IRA process is going well. The new custodian is going to oversee an in-kind transfer of SGOL from Schwab to their broker, US Bank, then I'll put in a sell order, and call the dealer and buy the metal after the cash is confirmed, so little or no time not being in my gold position. Hopefully less than a day. It's all transparent, with trusted (as far as you can trust your gold dealer, Schwab, and US Bank) public actors. The custodian doesn't own anything, they are just the traffic cop. It's fine.
I'm going to open an account with them as soon as I get the cashout of my Swiss annuity, hopefully this week or next.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by sophie » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:54 am

Not a bad deal for Goldstar. Some thoughts:

- If you do backdoor Roth contributions, make sure it's a Roth and not a traditional IRA you're opening with them.

- You need about $40K in the account in order to beat Fidelity's precious metal IRA fees. For smaller amounts the expenses are higher.

- It looks like they charge fees for non-gold investments, so if you rebalance out of gold you'd need to transfer the money somewhere else. How does that work? There are potentially several layers of fees involved.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:05 am

sophie wrote:Not a bad deal for Goldstar. Some thoughts:

- If you do backdoor Roth contributions, make sure it's a Roth and not a traditional IRA you're opening with them.

- You need about $40K in the account in order to beat Fidelity's precious metal IRA fees. For smaller amounts the expenses are higher.

- It looks like they charge fees for non-gold investments, so if you rebalance out of gold you'd need to transfer the money somewhere else. How does that work? There are potentially several layers of fees involved.
Fidelity has pretty high fees for buying and selling, namely 2.5% to buy $10K-$50k and 2% to sell for 0-$50k. You can do WAY better than that by opening a dealer's account with a wholesaler and having that wholesaler do the transaction for goldstartrust.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:14 pm

Hi Sophie, I can't do the Backdoor Roth because of what I'd done years and years (decades) ago to my IRAs... the pro-rata rule would be in place, and I just don't want to mess with it. I have the ability to make beaucoup Roth space with my Roth 401(k).

Goldstar is going to charge me $25 to sell my SGOL shares. Not the $4.95 discount fee, but I'll pay it once. The account value is six figures, so the fee bite is small as a percentage. It even makes sense on a short-term basis. Now, if I can just get it in funded in time to get the January Clearance prices from Texas Precious Metals for Maple Leaves, I'll be in business.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:24 pm

Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).

Billing Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
GoldStar Trust IRA #9999999
P.O. Box 179
Canyon , Texas, 79015
United States

Shipping Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
Delaware Depository Services Co
3601 North Market Street
Wilmington, Delaware, 79015
United States
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:26 am

ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).

Billing Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
GoldStar Trust IRA #9999999
P.O. Box 179
Canyon , Texas, 79015
United States

Shipping Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
Delaware Depository Services Co
3601 North Market Street
Wilmington, Delaware, 79015
United States
Whenever my Swiss franc annuity cashout money comes into my Fidelity account, I'll be doing the same. Thanks!
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:56 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).

Billing Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
GoldStar Trust IRA #9999999
P.O. Box 179
Canyon , Texas, 79015
United States

Shipping Information:
FBO OCHOTONA IRA
Delaware Depository Services Co
3601 North Market Street
Wilmington, Delaware, 79015
United States
Whenever my Swiss franc annuity cashout money comes into my Fidelity account, I'll be doing the same. Thanks!
I finally got that money so I'm working on getting the Goldstar IRA set up. Thanks again for the info!
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:26 pm

Be a little patient concerning how long it takes the metal to post into the account. My metals got to Delaware Depository on Friday, they posted the following Wednesday, which was slow for me, I'm generally impatient. Other than that, no problems.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:12 am

ochotona wrote:Be a little patient concerning how long it takes the metal to post into the account. My metals got to Delaware Depository on Friday, they posted the following Wednesday, which was slow for me, I'm generally impatient. Other than that, no problems.
Ok, but since I'm planning to buy something that is already in the Delaware depository (if feasible), it should take less time.

They have already opened the account even though I only applied today, so that part at least is quite fast.

Fidelity is actually going to be one of the limiting factors because they require a physical form to transfer assets from a "non-prototype" account to an IRA rollover. However, that should only be necessary a couple of times.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Mr Vacuum » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:41 pm

ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
Unlike most investments, metal ETFs are exempt from the wash sale rule limiting losses on securities sold and then immediately repurchased. Robert Gordon, president of Twenty-First Securities, explains: The IRS, avid to collect the higher collectible-rate tax, has decreed that the metal funds are not “securities.” But the wash sale statute applies only to “securities.”
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:00 pm

Mr Vacuum wrote:
ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
Unlike most investments, metal ETFs are exempt from the wash sale rule limiting losses on securities sold and then immediately repurchased. Robert Gordon, president of Twenty-First Securities, explains: The IRS, avid to collect the higher collectible-rate tax, has decreed that the metal funds are not “securities.” But the wash sale statute applies only to “securities.”
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Mr Vacuum » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:20 pm

Xan wrote: I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
Gotcha. Hitting the streets with coins to do a rebuy steps up the activation energy a level or two vs. trading ETFs in the bathrobe, IMHO.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:55 pm

Xan wrote:
Mr Vacuum wrote:
ochotona wrote:Trade is done, got the same price for physical gold today as when I sold my ETF on Friday - a few nail-biting moments there due to volatility. Only 1.5% premium, it was the annual clearance sale at Texas PM. Random year Can Gold Maple Leaves. I was on the I-10 in my car, placing this big order (we can talk on the phone with hands-free devices in Texas. Probably was a bad idea though).
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
Unlike most investments, metal ETFs are exempt from the wash sale rule limiting losses on securities sold and then immediately repurchased. Robert Gordon, president of Twenty-First Securities, explains: The IRS, avid to collect the higher collectible-rate tax, has decreed that the metal funds are not “securities.” But the wash sale statute applies only to “securities.”
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
I have done that a couple of times but wash sale rules wouldn't have been involved anyway because my sale was at a profit.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Xan » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:04 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Xan wrote:
Mr Vacuum wrote:
That's pretty slick. To wrap around to the original question, you ended up in the same situation in terms of taxes, essentially transferring from one IRA to another IRA, right?

Also earlier you remarked/asked about tax loss harvesting. As far as I can tell the collectibles rule only applies an upper limit for taxing gains, whereas collectibles losses simply count as capital losses by the normal short or long term rules.

There's also this odd idea that gold, being a collectible and not a security, is exempt from wash sale rules. So you can just sell and rebuy anytime you want to record a loss without waiting 31 days or finding a similar but different asset to buy? It's logical but I don't recall hearing about it around here. Do people do this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/20 ... gold-bugs/
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
I have done that a couple of times but wash sale rules wouldn't have been involved anyway because my sale was at a profit.
That may be what I'm thinking of.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:40 pm

Xan wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Xan wrote:
I'm pretty sure somebody here has a story of going to his/her gold dealer with some gold, and while that gold was sitting on the counter, sold and re-bought it, complete with a receipt for both transactions. The dealer took a small cut for facilitating.
I have done that a couple of times but wash sale rules wouldn't have been involved anyway because my sale was at a profit.
That may be what I'm thinking of.
I'm pretty sure that the wash sale rule doesn't apply to metals.

But if you're still worried about selling at a loss and then buying back, just buy something else, like a different coin. People do that all the time with similar but non-identical stock ETFs.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by sophie » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:32 am

I can confirm that the wash sale rules don't apply. I researched IRS rules, then tax loss harvested gold Eagles through APMEX in 2013. Per the guy I talked to on the phone, they were doing a ton of those transactions at the time. I had to mail them coins and get them mailed right back though.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Mr Vacuum » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:28 pm

sophie wrote:I can confirm that the wash sale rules don't apply. I researched IRS rules, then tax loss harvested gold Eagles through APMEX in 2013. Per the guy I talked to on the phone, they were doing a ton of those transactions at the time. I had to mail them coins and get them mailed right back though.
Thanks for confirming, sophie. Good deal.

My personal long run expectation for gold is effectively the fed’s inflation target, so I’m not concerned holding most of the allocation in my SEP IRA via Fidelity, but the ability to tax loss harvest that volatile stinker occasionally sure is enticing and may merit some shuffling eventually.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:28 am

Tech, can you really transfer one physical gold IRA to a different custodian without having to liquidate?

Here is my Yelp review of Goldstar Trust.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/goldstar-trust ... y-amarillo
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:32 am

I've heard boating accidents are the #1 liquidator of gold in taxable accounts.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by ochotona » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:43 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:I've heard boating accidents are the #1 liquidator of gold in taxable accounts.
I had one of those. Dang, I felt so bad.
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:18 am

Fuck safe deposit boxes, my gold's in Davy Jones' Locker!
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Re: Gold taxation thoughts

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:25 am

ochotona wrote:Tech, can you really transfer one physical gold IRA to a different custodian without having to liquidate?
I have no idea, although I don't know why that would be impossible in theory. What I liquidated was a Swiss franc annuity in a profit sharing plan.
That should have been easy but wasn't because the insurance company was totally incompetent at sending me the money even though they were already using almost identical instructions to pay my mother's annuity every quarter.
I'm still waiting for Fidelity to transfer the money from my profit sharing account to my rollover IRA, because for some reason that can't be done online. :(
ochotona wrote: Here is my Yelp review of Goldstar Trust.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/goldstar-trust ... y-amarillo
Nice! I have found them very good so far, but they are waiting for Fidelity to have the money in the right account before funding.
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