Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
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- dualstow
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I'm not worried about future gold purchases because I'll have a testing tool ready, but I shudder to think the random year krugs I already have at the bank could be fake. Hope not.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
dualstow, can you print the WSJ article to a pdf file and then post the pdf here?
- I Shrugged
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
This could have the effect of depressing demand for gold coins. Or so I would think.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
So now we should buy paper gold instead of physical???I Shrugged wrote:This could have the effect of depressing demand for gold coins. Or so I would think.
- I Shrugged
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
No, but if gold coins become disreputable, something's gotta give.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
The market is not dead yet. The 99.99% coins can't be counterfeited due to the density of gold. The lower gold content of Eagles and Krugerrands makes them vulnerable.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Tungsten is almost identical in density to gold, so even 24k coins might be a problem.ochotona wrote:The market is not dead yet. The 99.99% coins can't be counterfeited due to the density of gold. The lower gold content of Eagles and Krugerrands makes them vulnerable.
But the ring test will still distinguish fake from real coins.
- Steve Brule
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
If you are really concerned, there are more and more gold dealers that have x-ray frequency machines that can determine the content of your krugerrands. In my experience, the dealers with these machines have been happy to let me test my coins with them.dualstow wrote:I'm not worried about future gold purchases because I'll have a testing tool ready, but I shudder to think the random year krugs I already have at the bank could be fake. Hope not.
- dualstow
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Interesting. I haven't seen the x-ray tests, but that would get right to the point, wouldn't it? I'll have to see if I can find one locally.
I think I'll try the iphone app, and if necessary, the Fisch ringer (89 bucks) in the future.
I think I'll try the iphone app, and if necessary, the Fisch ringer (89 bucks) in the future.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Gosh, would that be x-ray diffraction (XRD) analysis? I used to do that in college with minerals. That's a serious solution to the security problem.
I have Maple Leaf coins with the micro-engraving on the leaf side, it's really intricate and not possible to see in full detail without magnification. You'd think this would be impossible to forge well.
I have Maple Leaf coins with the micro-engraving on the leaf side, it's really intricate and not possible to see in full detail without magnification. You'd think this would be impossible to forge well.
- dualstow
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I bought my first maple this winter, a 2017 with that microengraving. Pretty cool. I'd buy more if they weren't so soft (pure). Price of being pretty.
- Cortopassi
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I understand there is a potential for concern here, but it sounds a bit overblown. I buy from a guy who's been in business for 35+ years. I'm not too worried.
If a fake was good enough to pass by him to me, well, then it's probably good enough for me to pass on if there comes a time to sell! I will hopefully never know.
If a fake was good enough to pass by him to me, well, then it's probably good enough for me to pass on if there comes a time to sell! I will hopefully never know.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I'd heard maples were beautiful. I'd be worried about how they'd hold up during long term storage by a cretin like me, though.
I think I'm done buying physical gold, and this thread has helped with that decision - I just don't need to be worrying about counterfeiting, let alone storage & insurance issues. The rest of my taxable gold purchases will be Perth Mint certificates.
BTW Fidelity's bullion program is really worth a look for tax-advantaged accounts. They've reduced the storage fees. There are ~2% commissions to buy & sell, and storage (i.e. expense ratio) is 0.5/yr. Storage is in Nova Scotia and insured by Lloyd's of London. It's limited to IRAs, can't do it in a Keogh, but it's a really nice alternative to ETFs. I am thinking to take the plunge for the gold held in my Roth.
I think I'm done buying physical gold, and this thread has helped with that decision - I just don't need to be worrying about counterfeiting, let alone storage & insurance issues. The rest of my taxable gold purchases will be Perth Mint certificates.
BTW Fidelity's bullion program is really worth a look for tax-advantaged accounts. They've reduced the storage fees. There are ~2% commissions to buy & sell, and storage (i.e. expense ratio) is 0.5/yr. Storage is in Nova Scotia and insured by Lloyd's of London. It's limited to IRAs, can't do it in a Keogh, but it's a really nice alternative to ETFs. I am thinking to take the plunge for the gold held in my Roth.
- dualstow
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Physical gold is fun, though. I don't think I'll buy insurance until it's time to transport it all somewhere. (Yeah, they probably don't cover that).sophie wrote:..
I think I'm done buying physical gold, and this thread has helped with that decision - I just don't need to be worrying about counterfeiting, let alone storage & insurance issues. The rest of my taxable gold purchases will be Perth Mint certificates.
...
You've got me interested in the mint certs now.
Last edited by dualstow on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Steve Brule
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I want to say that it is, but I am not really sure. The machine looks sort of like a hand-held scanner from a grocery store that you press up against the gold then squeeze the trigger. Does that sound similar?ochotona wrote:Gosh, would that be x-ray diffraction (XRD) analysis? I used to do that in college with minerals. That's a serious solution to the security problem.
I have Maple Leaf coins with the micro-engraving on the leaf side, it's really intricate and not possible to see in full detail without magnification. You'd think this would be impossible to forge well.
My solution to counterfeits has been to buy the newer maples leaves with the light refracting lines on them. My reasoning is that many counterfeits half rough surfaces that I think would make replicating said lines very difficult, if not impossible.
- Mark Leavy
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
If the coin is the right size and weight, and you are still unsure, then just test the sound. There is no known way to make a counterfeit coin that will be even close to passing all three tests (size, weight, tone) at the same time.
To test for sound:
Balance one coin flat on a fingertip and then tap it gently with the edge of another coin.
A gold coin will give you a beautiful, sustained ring with rich third order harmonics. It reaches into your soul it is so melodic.
Tungsten or any false core will give you a "thud". If the tone doesn't make you weep - it's counterfeit.
To test for sound:
Balance one coin flat on a fingertip and then tap it gently with the edge of another coin.
A gold coin will give you a beautiful, sustained ring with rich third order harmonics. It reaches into your soul it is so melodic.
Tungsten or any false core will give you a "thud". If the tone doesn't make you weep - it's counterfeit.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
@Sophie. Why are Perth Mint certificates better for tax accounts, but Fidelity is better for tax-advantaged accounts?
Thx.
Thx.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Thanks for that! My Australian Mint Kangaroos had a beautiful ring, also the Krugerrands, the Canadian Maple Leafs, because they are thick and smaller diameter didn't ring as much, and it was very high-pitched, but still they rang.Mark Leavy wrote:If the coin is the right size and weight, and you are still unsure, then just test the sound. There is no known way to make a counterfeit coin that will be even close to passing all three tests (size, weight, tone) at the same time.
To test for sound:
Balance one coin flat on a fingertip and then tap it gently with the edge of another coin.
A gold coin will give you a beautiful, sustained ring with rich third order harmonics. It reaches into your soul it is so melodic.
Tungsten or any false core will give you a "thud". If the tone doesn't make you weep - it's counterfeit.
Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Well, you can do whatever you want with taxable money. I like the safety of dealing with the Perth Mint, plus the fact that Bron Sucheki, an employee of the Perth Mint, is a member of this forum and has provided useful answers to questions. It is annoying that the certificate account falls under FATCA rules. Something like Hard Assets Alliance is more convenient, but the short history (opened in 2012) makes me hesitate.thisisallen wrote:@Sophie. Why are Perth Mint certificates better for tax accounts, but Fidelity is better for tax-advantaged accounts?
Thx.
For tax-advantaged accounts, life gets harder. The main two options have been gold ETFs or a gold IRA with a specialized custodian. I'm getting increasingly nervous about gold ETFs especially if the gold price sinks further, and would like to avoid them. Gold IRAs are a PITA to set up and also super expensive. The fact that Fidelity now offers bullion storage in IRAs for prices that are competitive with gold ETFs is an awfully attractive alternative. It's unallocated storage but I think far safer than an ETF.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
Have you considered Bullion Vault? Some friends (non PP investors) have been using it for years and recommend it as a good company. And it seems to be discussed and liked in the forum.
There was a thread about it:
http://www.gyroscopicinvesting.com/foru ... php?t=8487
Don't laugh but I never heard of FACTA, and I have been living in India a lot and have bank accounts. I do know about the FBAR form that needs to be sent in by 30 June each year but that is not the IRS, it is the Treasury Department. It is required when a person has accounts over $10,000 in a foreign investment. Of course, if a person has earned interest on a foreign investment then the person needs to declare that on his income tax form.
There was a thread about it:
http://www.gyroscopicinvesting.com/foru ... php?t=8487
Don't laugh but I never heard of FACTA, and I have been living in India a lot and have bank accounts. I do know about the FBAR form that needs to be sent in by 30 June each year but that is not the IRS, it is the Treasury Department. It is required when a person has accounts over $10,000 in a foreign investment. Of course, if a person has earned interest on a foreign investment then the person needs to declare that on his income tax form.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I think it may be possible to use a foreign institution for physical gold in a tax-advantaged account, if that account is a corporate profit sharing plan. If there were enough money involved to make that feasible, I would take a look at that if I were in your situation.sophie wrote:I'd heard maples were beautiful. I'd be worried about how they'd hold up during long term storage by a cretin like me, though.
I think I'm done buying physical gold, and this thread has helped with that decision - I just don't need to be worrying about counterfeiting, let alone storage & insurance issues. The rest of my taxable gold purchases will be Perth Mint certificates.
BTW Fidelity's bullion program is really worth a look for tax-advantaged accounts. They've reduced the storage fees. There are ~2% commissions to buy & sell, and storage (i.e. expense ratio) is 0.5/yr. Storage is in Nova Scotia and insured by Lloyd's of London. It's limited to IRAs, can't do it in a Keogh, but it's a really nice alternative to ETFs. I am thinking to take the plunge for the gold held in my Roth.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
I assume you are a US "person". If this is correct, you will probably be hearing about FATCA from whichever banks you deal with, once they get harassed by the US Treasury. Be prepared for a lot of pain if you haven't been following the incredibly annoying and intrusive rules.thisisallen wrote:Have you considered Bullion Vault? Some friends (non PP investors) have been using it for years and recommend it as a good company. And it seems to be discussed and liked in the forum.
There was a thread about it:
http://www.gyroscopicinvesting.com/foru ... php?t=8487
Don't laugh but I never heard of FACTA, and I have been living in India a lot and have bank accounts. I do know about the FBAR form that needs to be sent in by 30 June each year but that is not the IRS, it is the Treasury Department. It is required when a person has accounts over $10,000 in a foreign investment. Of course, if a person has earned interest on a foreign investment then the person needs to declare that on his income tax form.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
After looking up FACTA, the minimum account that requires reporting is $50k. I haven't kept that much in an account at any 1 time since it is easy to transfer from US and there is currency exchange risk (especially now when $ is strong).
Good to know about FACTA for future decisions.
Thx.
Good to know about FACTA for future decisions.
Thx.
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
It's FATCA, and the minimum account size used to be $10k, so that's an improvement.thisisallen wrote:After looking up FACTA, the minimum account that requires reporting is $50k. I haven't kept that much in an account at any 1 time since it is easy to transfer from US and there is currency exchange risk (especially now when $ is strong).
Good to know about FACTA for future decisions.
Thx.
- dualstow
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Re: Gold Coin Counterfeiting today
@ocho: how did you test the maple without scratching it? One of the apps I found calls for spinning the coins on a hard surface.
This along with Leavy's description has led me to expect nothing less than the elven singing that Tolkien says created the universe.
light refracting lines: the new Britannias also have a kind of sun ray background design. Don't know if they're light refracting, but they're supposed to be a good anti-counterfeiting measure.
This along with Leavy's description has led me to expect nothing less than the elven singing that Tolkien says created the universe.
light refracting lines: the new Britannias also have a kind of sun ray background design. Don't know if they're light refracting, but they're supposed to be a good anti-counterfeiting measure.