The GOLD scream room

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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iwealth
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by iwealth » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:00 pm

Budd, you've known for years that the PP does not do what you want it to do. You want it to zig while stocks zag on an intraday basis. It does not do that. And it's creating a massive drag on your returns during one of the greatest and longest bull markets in history.

Why would you allocate any of that 200k to gold or long bonds?
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Ugly_Bird
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Ugly_Bird » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:00 pm

buddtholomew wrote:I have 200K to add to the portfolio.
I’m having a difficult time deciding between 70/30 and the PP.
It’s stocks up, PP up; stocks down, PP down.
100k to PP
100k to 70/30
And forget about it... For a while... :-)
Would be good to compare the performance in 10 years. :-)
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buddtholomew
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by buddtholomew » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:06 pm

iwealth wrote:Budd, you've known for years that the PP does not do what you want it to do. You want it to zig while stocks zag on an intraday basis. It does not do that. And it's creating a massive drag on your returns during one of the greatest and longest bull markets in history.

Why would you allocate any of that 200k to gold or long bonds?
That’s why I have a 70/30 allocation for retirement since the PP hasn’t met my needs at all. A whole lot of volatility with the hopes that one asset outperforms. For the last 7 years it’s been stocks.

Another beating today, no surprise there.
Guess who? That’s right Gold and LTT’s.
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buddtholomew
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by buddtholomew » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:29 pm

I'm not going to post anymore since obviously I haven't reached the zen that others have investing in the PP.
Good luck to all.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by stuper1 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:59 pm

It really doesn't take zen. When the PP experiences a drop, compare the current drop to drops that have happened in the past using a back-testing tool like portfoliovisualizer.com. If the current drop is no larger than drops that have happened previously, then shrug your shoulders and find something else to worry about. Also, you have to realize that the PP is going to lag a stock-heavy portfolio when stocks are going through a bull market. When a stock downturn hits, the PP will catch up quite a bit, but probably not all the way. If you are sure that you can ride it out all the way through a stock downturn and the years-long return to the previous peak, then you may be better off with a stock-heavy portfolio. But what happens if you lose your job during the downturn and need to draw on some of your assets?
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ochotona
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by ochotona » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:58 pm

It being Lent and all, our church advises cutting back on social media as a Lenten discipline so as to put emphasis on personal interactions.

Maybe totally giving up on daily portfolio checking would also be helpful.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Mr Vacuum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:52 pm

buddtholomew wrote:I have 200K to add to the portfolio.
I’m having a difficult time deciding between 70/30 and the PP.
All I have witnessed in my investing life which started in 2008 is stocks out-performing all other assets with minimal/short-lived declines.
While psychologically I like the PP, I have yet to witness the portfolio zigging when stocks zag.
It’s stocks up, PP up; stocks down, PP down.
Have you ever invested in the Permanent Portfolio? YES! And how did that make you feel? LIKE A LOSER! (remember the old Late Show Crystal Clear Party Ice ad?)

I don't have daily data for all three assets, but here is some perspective on the monthly losers. From 1968-2007 all three assets were down 9.4% of months. Starting 2008, 7.5%.

Image
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:55 pm

Not checking day to day is a HUGE help to me. And purposely not trying to care. Seriously, what am I going to do, micromanage my portfolio again? Disaster and stress if I do.

Other than the PP, the other thing I did about 6 months ago was quit Quicken and go to an online bank/portfolio accounts tracker. Not selling it, but it is Personal Capital.

What it has done for me is change my daily routine. I would come home, fire up Quicken, download transactions. Enter receipts manually and match when they cleared, and obsess about the top line number.

With changing to online, the transactions are downloaded automatically. I enter nothing. A quick 3 seconds to see that a receipt matches and I shred the receipts. Changes a 10-15 minute daily process to 1 minute, and it is not in my head anymore.

So my portfolio is down another $3-4k on paper today. Whatever. Does that change my ability to retire, send my kids to college and pay day to day bills? No. So the hell with worrying about it.
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:22 pm

BUDD YOU HAVE TO STAY MY GYROSCOPICINVESTING DRINKING GAME IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT YOU NOOOOOOO
MangoMan wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:03 pm

;D
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Tyler
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Tyler » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:59 pm

buddtholomew wrote:I have 200K to add to the portfolio.
I’m having a difficult time deciding between 70/30 and the PP.
All I have witnessed in my investing life which started in 2008 is stocks out-performing all other assets with minimal/short-lived declines.
While psychologically I like the PP, I have yet to witness the portfolio zigging when stocks zag.
It’s stocks up, PP up; stocks down, PP down.
Don't get dejected, Budd. And don't stop posting. It's a lot better to vent and eventually chill than it is to let it all build up and make you do something rash like yank all your money between portfolios.

Explaining how your observations about the PP vs your 70/30 portfolio jive with history is sorta tricky, and it inspired me to tinker with a new calculator that directly compares portfolios. It's still a work in progress, but I'll give you a sneak preview as I think it will help.

Image

This overlays the 1-15 year performance for every historical start year since 1970 for both the PP and a 70-30 portfolio. The gray is the 70/30, and the orange is the PP. The wide band represents the outcome extremes, while the darker inner band represents the most common middle two-thirds of the outcomes.

Think of this chart as representing the historical accuracy of each portfolio trajectory. The PP is like a laser beam of returns while the the 70/30 is like a shotgun. While the 70/30 portfolio does have a higher average return, the PP is a lot more steady along the way with less upside and less downside. Basically, it's a lot more predictable and can work really well with the right savings plan. And there are ways to supplement it with a VP if simply raising the average to a similar spot is a concern, although that's a topic for another discussion.

Even if the 70/30 has outperformed the PP since 2008, eventually you'll run across a timeframe when the 70/30 portfolio falls into that lower band well below the PP. If the relative performance of the two portfolios bothers you now, how will that make you feel?

BTW, my best advice on gold is to stop scrutinizing every individual portfolio ingredient and focus on the cake.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:07 am

Really nice way to view it, Tyler!
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:27 am

I think what we are looking at is probabilities. Most likely the 70/30 is going to out-perform the PP over a 15-year time frame, but there is a chance that it won't. Do I really want to take that chance? Harry Browne was very smart when he said to hold the PP with the money that you can't afford to lose. With the VP, I can take on some additional risk with money that I can afford to lose.
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buddtholomew
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by buddtholomew » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:59 am

Even if the 70/30 has outperformed the PP since 2008, eventually you'll run across a timeframe when the 70/30 portfolio falls into that lower band well below the PP. If the relative performance of the two portfolios bothers you now, how will that make you feel?
Thank you Tyler for spending the time to produce the illustration.

I selected the PP for its overall stability and risk adjusted return comparable to a more equity centric portfolio.
Unfortunately, I cannot substantiate my decision as the PP has not kept pace, let alone outpaced a 70/30 or even 60/40 allocation on an annual basis since 2008 (10 years). What I have witnessed is the PP gains less or loses less but the increases pale in comparison to an equity heavy portfolio and the losses are sometimes even greater. Case in point, the latest 10-15% decline in equities clobbered the PP as well since Gold was flat and LTT's down 6%+. My 70/30 allocation with International and IT bonds is UP, yes UP over the same time frame with the PP still negative YTD.

In response to your question, I would feel content if the PP out-performed a 70/30 allocation over the next 15 years, but would still contribute to equities as I have internalized that they decline from time to time. I am prepared for that. What I am not prepared for is a portfolio that doesn't offer diversification when equities decline and is muted during a bull market. Lose/lose.
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ochotona
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by ochotona » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:51 pm

buddtholomew wrote:I selected the PP for its overall stability and risk adjusted return comparable to a more equity centric portfolio.
Unfortunately, I cannot substantiate my decision as the PP has not kept pace, let alone outpaced a 70/30 or even 60/40 allocation on an annual basis since 2008 (10 years). What I have witnessed is the PP gains less or loses less but the increases pale in comparison to an equity heavy portfolio and the losses are sometimes even greater. Case in point, the latest 10-15% decline in equities clobbered the PP as well since Gold was flat and LTT's down 6%+. My 70/30 allocation with International and IT bonds is UP, yes UP over the same time frame with the PP still negative YTD.

In response to your question, I would feel content if the PP out-performed a 70/30 allocation over the next 15 years, but would still contribute to equities as I have internalized that they decline from time to time. I am prepared for that. What I am not prepared for is a portfolio that doesn't offer diversification when equities decline and is muted during a bull market. Lose/lose.
I think one approach is to enter-exit the components with moving averages. It has been done. It works. But it will still underperform the S&P500 during bull markets.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by sophie » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:43 pm

Budd, why would you expect the PP to outperform the 70/30? That's not the goal. As Harry Browne said, "Investing is about taking the returns that the market gives you."

If there were a risk-free investment that could beat a 70/30 over time, believe me we'd all be there. The problem is, there isn't. And I might point out that your time frame of 10 years for judging stock market behavior isn't long enough. You need at least 15 years. Take a look at the PP vs 70/30 for 1998-2008, and you'll see what I mean.
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buddtholomew
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by buddtholomew » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:04 pm

sophie wrote:Budd, why would you expect the PP to outperform the 70/30? That's not the goal. As Harry Browne said, "Investing is about taking the returns that the market gives you."

If there were a risk-free investment that could beat a 70/30 over time, believe me we'd all be there. The problem is, there isn't. And I might point out that your time frame of 10 years for judging stock market behavior isn't long enough. You need at least 15 years. Take a look at the PP vs 70/30 for 1998-2008, and you'll see what I mean.
I’m using it for comparison purposes.
I didn’t invest in the portfolio from 1998-2008 so it is not relevant to me. Perhaps I would feel differently if I did, but I didn’t. If you were taking what the market gives then why invest in Gold or LTT’s? Invest in the market AKA stocks.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by ochotona » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:05 pm

The market could give us -50% soon enough. Not a bet I wish to make. We are late in the cycle.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by eufo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:30 pm

buddtholomew wrote:I didn’t invest in the portfolio from 1998-2008 so it is not relevant to me.
How is past data not relevant? :o
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:33 pm

Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.

Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by buddtholomew » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:36 pm

eufo wrote:
buddtholomew wrote:I didn’t invest in the portfolio from 1998-2008 so it is not relevant to me.
How is past data not relevant? :o
Backtesting has no predictive value.
It’s fun though, I actually do data mining and predictive analytics for a living.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by eufo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:41 pm

buddtholomew wrote:
eufo wrote:
buddtholomew wrote:I didn’t invest in the portfolio from 1998-2008 so it is not relevant to me.
How is past data not relevant? :o
Backtesting has no predictive value.
It’s fun though, I actually do data mining and predictive analytics for a living.
Then why would it matter if your 70/30 portfolio outperformed YTD?
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Tyler » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:48 pm

buddtholomew wrote:
eufo wrote:
How is past data not relevant? :o
Backtesting has no predictive value.
I disagree.

To ignore evidence of past portfolio behavior is like hiring an employee while refusing to read his resume. Just because you'll never know for certain how he will react to every possible future situation does not mean you can't get a pretty good feel for how his skills match your job requirements by looking at his full body of work.

No portfolio is perfectly predictable, but not all portfolios are equally unpredictable. Backtesting is a terrific way to quantify that uncertainty in order to set realistic expectations.
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buddtholomew
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by buddtholomew » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:13 pm

Tyler wrote:
buddtholomew wrote:
eufo wrote:
How is past data not relevant? :o
Backtesting has no predictive value.
I disagree.

To ignore evidence of past portfolio behavior is like hiring an employee while refusing to read his resume. Just because you'll never know for certain how he will react to every possible future situation does not mean you can't get a pretty good feel for how his skills match your job requirements by looking at his full body of work.

No portfolio is perfectly predictable, but not all portfolios are equally unpredictable. Backtesting is a terrific way to quantify that uncertainty in order to set realistic expectations.
Oh, I believe it applies in other aspects of life, just not investing! Seasonality, trends, etc have predictive value (e.g.forecasts) but the relationship of future returns to historical returns is less substantive to me.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by eufo » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:53 am

buddtholomew wrote:Oh, I believe it applies in other aspects of life, just not investing! Seasonality, trends, etc have predictive value (e.g.forecasts) but the relationship of future returns to historical returns is less substantive to me.

So, again, I ask... why would it matter if your 70/30 portfolio outperformed YTD?

You're using past information to predict the future, just an incredibly small sample. Why would a small sample outweigh a larger one? Because times have changed?

I'm about done here, but you need to understand that you are wrapped up in emotion right now. Emotions won't help you make a smart move financially, except by sheer chance. Maybe you'll get lucky.
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:05 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:BUDD YOU HAVE TO STAY MY GYROSCOPICINVESTING DRINKING GAME IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT YOU NOOOOOOO
Merits a thread O0
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
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