The GOLD scream room

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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welderwannabe
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by welderwannabe »

Smith1776 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:12 pm The thing I really like about the Maple Leafs is that apparently they are quite difficult to counterfeit convincingly. There's a specific technology that the Canadian Mint calls "Bullion DNA" that includes some security features.

The thing I don't like about them is that unlike Gold Eagles they are actually pure 24K gold. They are quite easily damaged if handled carelessly. Can't have it all I guess.
I also believe its much harder to counterfeit 24K gold products. Supposedly an eagle has been counterfeited where it would still pass the size/mass test, but no one has done so with a maple leaf.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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{ 🇨🇦 Maple Leaf coins, continued }…
Smith1776 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:12 pm
The thing I don't like about them is that unlike Gold Eagles they are actually pure 24K gold. They are quite easily damaged if handled carelessly. Can't have it all I guess.
Vil wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:30 am Here they sell them in transparent hard plastic covers. All the coins I've seen do not look like they were ever taken out from those shells. Personally, I havent touch directly any of my coins. Have heard from my seller that if there are any signs of finger touches, scratches etc. that would immediately decrease their price (and that makes sense, no?)


That’s why I only own one.

Krugerrands have crown gold (copper for hardness). Eagles have copper and some silver. Austrian Philharmonics and Australian kangaroos have..something. Copper? It’s in the wiki pages.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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My latest pick up. A 5 gram bar from Johnson Matthey. O0


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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by dualstow »

^ ^ Just out of curiosity, Smithers, how much would that cost if it were an ounce? 28.3495 grams in an ounce, so multiply the price by 5.6699 I guess?)
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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dualstow wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:20 am ^ ^ Just out of curiosity, Smithers, how much would that cost if it were an ounce? 28.3495 grams in an ounce, so multiply the price by 5.6699 I guess?)
They only had 5 gram and 10 gram pieces for sale... so I can't really say for sure. :)
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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Buutttt...you know how much you paid for the five grams, right?
My bad. Let me put it this way: how much if you bought an ounce of 5-gram pieces? I did most of the math above.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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dualstow wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:20 pm Buutttt...you know how much you paid for the five grams, right?
My bad. Let me put it this way: how much if you bought an ounce of 5-gram pieces? I did most of the math above.
Ahhh I see what you mean. Well a troy ounce is actually 31.1035 grams.

This 5 gram piece cost me $455 Canadian dollars.

So that's at a rate of $2,830 Canadian dollars per ounce.

I do see your point. Less gold per dollar.. but it is what it is for the divisibility and diversification against counterfeits I guess.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Mark Leavy »

Smith1776 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:41 pm
...

So that's at a rate of $2,830 Canadian dollars per ounce.

I do see your point. Less gold per dollar.. but it is what it is for the divisibility and diversification against counterfeits I guess.
For dualstow: About $2059.31 per ounce in the coin of the realm. (God bless America) Or about ~15% premium.

Smithers: Are you buying these fractional coins for an apocalypse scenario, or for preservation of wealth or for portfolio diversification or because collecting different coins is fun or ?? The counterfeit argument is specious, the others are all plausible.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Mark Leavy »

welderwannabe wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:27 pm I also believe its much harder to counterfeit 24K gold products. Supposedly an eagle has been counterfeited where it would still pass the size/mass test, but no one has done so with a maple leaf.
Train your ear. Use known good coins.

If it meets size, weight and timbre (rings true), it is as good a gold.

You've found the philosopher's stone if you can make a base metal match gold for size and weight and timbre.
And even the most wretched man can check that with a scale, an eye and an ear.

No need for anything more than that.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Smith1776 »

I, um, er, uh, yeah. :P
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by dualstow »

Thank you both. I think the only reason I bought fractional was because of you, Mark. You had said something about being able to slip them in with regular coin change at TSA. I liked that.

I stopped at a ½ Eagle and a 1/4 Eagle. And I bought a ½ sovereign with my platinum jubilee sovereign. But, the next time I buy more than a single 1oz coin in one order, I’ll probably be tempted to add a fractional.

That’s right, Smithers - more bang for your Canuck buck. I hadn’t thought of a troy ounce, though. Good catch. And you’re right. I guess we could call it the divisibility fee. In the end, though, you’ll probably be leaving the coins to someone else. And, eventually, *someone* down the line is going to want to sell them back to a dealer. More likely than an apocalypse anyway.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Smith1776 »

The whole spreads versus divisibility versus diversification against counterfeits debate is an interesting one.

My current solution is to just own all kinds of denominations (big and small) bought at different times, different dealers, and refined by different entities. O0
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by welderwannabe »

Mark Leavy wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:26 pm Train your ear. Use known good coins.

If it meets size, weight and timbre (rings true), it is as good a gold.

You've found the philosopher's stone if you can make a base metal match gold for size and weight and timbre.
And even the most wretched man can check that with a scale, an eye and an ear.

No need for anything more than that.
Ive got a lot to learn. Dont know any of that stuff.
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Stocking Stuffer for the Girlfriend

Post by Smith1776 »

Found the tiniest little gold denomination cheap enough to make a cute stocking stuffer. Will be picking this up for the ol' ball and chain this year. ;D


gold 1 100.jpg
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Tortoise »

welderwannabe wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:26 am
Mark Leavy wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:26 pm Train your ear. Use known good coins.

If it meets size, weight and timbre (rings true), it is as good a gold.

You've found the philosopher's stone if you can make a base metal match gold for size and weight and timbre.
And even the most wretched man can check that with a scale, an eye and an ear.

No need for anything more than that.
Ive got a lot to learn. Dont know any of that stuff.
There's not much to it. To check size and weight, use this simple piece of plastic:
https://goldcoinbalance.com

To check timbre, simply rest the coin on the tip of your finger and gently flick the edge with your fingernail or a piece of hard plastic like a pen. If you hear a very high-pitched ringing, it's gold. If you hear no ringing, it's not gold.
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Re: Stocking Stuffer for the Girlfriend

Post by dualstow »

Smith1776 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:42 am Found the tiniest little gold denomination cheap enough to make a cute stocking stuffer. Will be picking this up for the ol' ball and chain this year. ;D



gold 1 100.jpg
<record scratch> What ball and chain?
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Re: Stocking Stuffer for the Girlfriend

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dualstow wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Smith1776 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:42 am
Found the tiniest little gold denomination cheap enough to make a cute stocking stuffer. Will be picking this up for the ol' ball and chain this year. ;D



gold 1 100.jpg


<record scratch> What ball and chain?


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=yo ... 6PC%3dU531
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Re: Stocking Stuffer for the Girlfriend

Post by Smith1776 »

dualstow wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Smith1776 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:42 am Found the tiniest little gold denomination cheap enough to make a cute stocking stuffer. Will be picking this up for the ol' ball and chain this year. ;D



gold 1 100.jpg
<record scratch> What ball and chain?
A new one! 😆
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by vnatale »

Tortoise wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:57 pm
welderwannabe wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:26 am
Mark Leavy wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:26 pm
Train your ear. Use known good coins.

If it meets size, weight and timbre (rings true), it is as good a gold.

You've found the philosopher's stone if you can make a base metal match gold for size and weight and timbre.
And even the most wretched man can check that with a scale, an eye and an ear.

No need for anything more than that.


Ive got a lot to learn. Dont know any of that stuff.


There's not much to it. To check size and weight, use this simple piece of plastic:
https://goldcoinbalance.com

To check timbre, simply rest the coin on the tip of your finger and gently flick the edge with your fingernail or a piece of hard plastic like a pen. If you hear a very high-pitched ringing, it's gold. If you hear no ringing, it's not gold.


Good to see you here again, Tortoise!

In the same day we got back both pugchief from self-imposed exile and you from relative inactivity, two people who were forum stalwarts when I first joined it. Each of you have been missed by me.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by welderwannabe »

Tortoise wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:57 pm There's not much to it. To check size and weight, use this simple piece of plastic:
https://goldcoinbalance.com

To check timbre, simply rest the coin on the tip of your finger and gently flick the edge with your fingernail or a piece of hard plastic like a pen. If you hear a very high-pitched ringing, it's gold. If you hear no ringing, it's not gold.
I just ordered one, thanks.

I see they suggest not buying 22K gold coins and sticks with 24K for the reason I mentioned above. Is your timbre check what will help me detect a fake if it passes this plastic test?
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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welderwannabe wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am I see they suggest not buying 22K gold coins and sticks with 24K for the reason I mentioned above. Is your timbre check what will help me detect a fake if it passes this plastic test?
Yes, the ring test needs to be done in combination with the size and weight test. It may be possible to construct a fake coin that passes the ring test, but then it wouldn’t pass the size and weight tests. As Mark pointed out, the combination of all three is what’s basically impossible to achieve with anything other than gold.

Here’s a short video clip of a ring test comparing a real gold maple leaf to a fake (tungsten) one:

https://youtube.com/shorts/k0kxeyemJBg?feature=share
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:00 am
welderwannabe wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:53 am I see they suggest not buying 22K gold coins and sticks with 24K for the reason I mentioned above. Is your timbre check what will help me detect a fake if it passes this plastic test?
Yes, the ring test needs to be done in combination with the size and weight test. It may be possible to construct a fake coin that passes the ring test, but then it wouldn’t pass the size and weight tests. As Mark pointed out, the combination of all three is what’s basically impossible to achieve with anything other than gold.

Here’s a short video clip of a ring test comparing a real gold maple leaf to a fake (tungsten) one:

https://youtube.com/shorts/k0kxeyemJBg?feature=share
The fake maple leaf also doesn't have the benefit of the radial lines on the face of the coin ("Bullion DNA").
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by dualstow »

That Bullion DNA looks pretty cool -- https://www.mint.ca/en/bullion/bullion-dna --
but what about all the old coins?
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Re: The GOLD scream room

Post by Mark Leavy »

dualstow wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:31 pm That Bullion DNA looks pretty cool -- https://www.mint.ca/en/bullion/bullion-dna --
That is pretty cool. Gold is such a great metal for that type of a security feature. I think that stamping a diffraction grating or something into the coin is a great idea. Something that you could never hope to accomplish with a more brittle metal like Tungsten.
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Re: The GOLD scream room

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Mark Leavy wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:55 pm
dualstow wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:31 pm That Bullion DNA looks pretty cool -- https://www.mint.ca/en/bullion/bullion-dna --
That is pretty cool. Gold is such a great metal for that type of a security feature. I think that stamping a diffraction grating or something into the coin is a great idea. Something that you could never hope to accomplish with a more brittle metal like Tungsten.
What about gold-plated tungsten? I'm pretty sure most of the tungsten fakes are coated with real gold.
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