Purposely Buying/Storing Fake Gold Coins

[TripleB]

It's a good idea to keep your finances as secret as possible, but there's always leaks. Everyone of us here is on the internet, and a hacker could hack the forum software, extract IP addresses, figure out where we live, and try to target us for gold coins. Or much more likely, you bought gold coins from an online dealer, and their server was hacked, and now the hacker has a list of people who bought gold coins, and can sort by volume purchased to determine the best houses to rob.

Or even much much more likely, someone close to you knows you have gold, because everyone has friends and family that probably know a bit more than they need to.

I'd like to explore the possibility of buying and storing fake gold coins.

If TSHTF and you're seen bartering gold, then at some later point, bandits will try to rob you. Give them the fake gold.
The government may be doing house-to-house seizures. Give them the fake gold.
Your drug addict step-son may break into your safe. Leave the fake gold as a honeypot.

There's a few downsides:

1) Cost. I imagine that fake gold coins that look good, probably cost a lot of money, because the theory is people are selling them at near spot, to victims, and since the potential profit is high, the counterfeiters know this and price it into the fake coin price.

2) Legal Risk. The government may claim you are trying to illegally sell fake gold. Even if you have done nothing to indicate that, just by virtue of ordering it and possessing it, they can make a case against you. Unlike what you've been told, you are guilty until proven innocent in America. Ask anyone who's ever been arrested (and had charges later dropped) how easy it is to get a job by telling your prospective employer that your *public* arrest record was just a mistake.

3) Mix ups. You may confuse your real gold with your fake gold, but with the $20 plastic coin tester and/or caliper, that's not a huge risk.

My theory would be to hide the fake gold coins in your safe. And hide the real coins somewhere else.

The biggest question I have is where do I find fake replica coins, and how much do they cost? Once that's answered, then we can decide whether it's a good idea, because now it's just theorycraft.

[jackely]

The biggest question I have is where do I find fake replica coins, and how much do they cost? Once that's answered, then we can decide whether it's a good idea, because now it's just theorycraft.

You could try ebay. Look for ones advertised as real but selling for $15/ounce. Offer a few bucks. Maybe they will take it.

[Ad Orientem]

A couple quick points.  First I think that this is veering into the realm of paranoia.  As long as you don't store your gold at home (which as I have noted elsewhere is always high risk) the danger should be minimal.  Beyond which insurance is a better investment than fake coins.  Secondly, gold coins are usually minted by sovereign governments.  Some even have actual monetary values assigned to them.  Faking them could quite possible be construed as counterfeiting.  At the very least you would have to put markings on the "fake" coin that would be false and could stand as evidence in a court of law suggesting intent to commit fraud.

In short, I think this is really unwise.

[MediumTex]

TribleB,

I used to think about things like that.  When I had kids, however, all my "fake gold coins as elaborate decoy" energy was quickly sucked up by my new dependents.

While you have the energy to map all of this out, though, you might also want to work through the circuitry of a discussion like they had in "The Princess Bride" where it is necessary to manage your real coins and fake coins in real time.

You never know when you might find yourself in a situation like this with your gold on the line and Vizzini across the table from you.



Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?

Man in Black: Australia.

Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're just stalling now.

Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!

Man in Black: Then make your choice.

Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?

Man in Black: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]

Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.

Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter. First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

Man in Black, Vizzini: [Vizzini and the Man in Black drink]

Man in Black: You guessed wrong.

Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, his smile frozen on his face and falls to the ground dead]

Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.

Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

[Bongleur]

Here you go:

http://www.amazon.com/2009-American-Eag ... B003Q21XCI

[TripleB]

I wonder if replica coins go for accurate weight, or accurate shape, since they can't do both? If they go for accurate weight, they will be too big. If they go for accurate shape/size they will be too light.

[stone]

TripleB, don't both gold and tungsten have the same density of 19.3 g/cm3 ?
https://sites.google.com/site/chempendi ... ure-metals

[ahhrunforthehills]

-

[MediumTex]

Get a cheap sentry safe and "hide" it in an obvious spot.  Get yourself a really nice jewelry box from your wife/girlfriend.  Buy yourself a bunch of different size/shape assortments of cubic zarconia loose stones.  Put them in a couple small baggies, put the baggies in the really nice jewelery box.  Throw it in the safe.

Buy a fake Rolex and some costume jewelry.  Throw it in the safe. 

Lastly, put a couple REAL small gold coins in there.  That will make the thief think the other stuff is all real (and hopefully leave).  I would think that is the most important part.

Also, you might put an authentic looking map in the safe with the location marked of what is supposed to be an additional cache of gold bullion.  If you wanted to be really sly you could search local property records and try to find someone with the last name of "Kidd" or "Blackbeard" and locate the treasure on their land just to spice up the thief's search a bit.

[TripleB]

I'm going to also have a fake gold coin money pool so a thief will swim around in the fake gold and not realize the real gold coin pool is hidden.

[AdamA]

If you wanted to be really sly you could search local property records and try to find someone with the last name of "Kidd" or "Blackbeard" and locate the treasure on their land just to spice up the thief's search a bit.

I think if I did that and actually got robbed, the enjoyment I would obtain from even the remote possibility that some burglar was looking for gold on Mr. Blackbeard's property may make up for the bad feelings caused by the robbery.

[WildAboutHarry]

Also, you might put an authentic looking map...

How about this one?

[smurff]

The replica or tribute coins sold by reputable (?) sellers will all be marked with the word "replica" or a similar phrase, as required by law.  Depending on the intelligence and experience levels of the thieves, they may actually know what the word means and won't be fooled.  But it might work for some petty criminals or drug-addled family members.  (The latter might become dangerous when they discover they can't fence the "gold" coins they stole; they might come after you with violence until you give the real ones up.)

The replica coins of sovereign governments that are sold by disreputable sellers won't be marked with such notices, but possession of such coins may actually be against the law, as they're counterfeits.  If you give them up in an official gold confiscation you'll probably be arrested unless you can demonstrate on the spot that you did not know they were fakes.  That would be hard to do if any kind of receipt (physical or electronic) was generated when you bought them.

Also, if something happens to you, or your heirs, and future generations/heirs aren't warned, they could unwittingly mix them together, or even throw out real gold and hang on to the unmarked fakes. 

These things are major issues, and besides, anything that increases the number of unmarked gold fakes is going to cause problems for legitimate investors.

But TripleB, I plan to explore the idea of diversionary gold, and I give you big gold star for coming up with it and generating the discussion.

[WildAboutHarry]

...but possession of such coins may actually be against the law, as they're counterfeits.

Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.

Possession of counterfeit coin. Every person who has in his possession, or receives for any other person, any counterfeit gold or silver coin of the species current in this state, or any counterfeit gold dust, gold or silver bullion or bars, lumps, pieces, or nuggets, with the intention to sell, utter, put off, or pass the same, or permits, causes, or procures the same to be sold, uttered, or passed, with intention to defraud any person, knowing the same to be counterfeit, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not less than one (1) nor more than fourteen (14) years.

I'm not a lawyer, but my limited research into this is that the possession of counterfeit coins is not a problem unless you intend to pass them off as the genuine article.

[smurff]

I'm not a lawyer, but my limited research into this is that the possession of counterfeit coins is not a problem unless you intend to pass them off as the genuine article.

But that's what TripleB was talking about:  Intentionally passing the fakes off as the real thing--with the intent of defrauding criminals.  

[WildAboutHarry]

But that's what TripleB was talking about:  Intentionally passing the fakes off as the real thing--with the intent of defrauding criminals.

I think it would be difficult to prove intent to defraud in the case of 1) theft, 2) government confiscation, or 3) appropriation by a drug-addled relative

None of those situations represent a willing-buyer/willing-seller kind of relationship.

[MediumTex]

But that's what TripleB was talking about:  Intentionally passing the fakes off as the real thing--with the intent of defrauding criminals.

I think it would be difficult to prove intent to defraud in the case of 1) theft, 2) government confiscation, or 3) appropriation by a drug-addled relative

None of those situations represent a willing-buyer/willing-seller kind of relationship.

If something like this happened, it might show up on the local news as one of those dumb criminal stories.

"And finally tonight, a group of burglars got a surprise when they tried to lodge a complaint regarding some fake gold coins they told the police they had purchased.  It turns out that they had been stolen.  What tripped the burglars up is when talking about the fake coins with police they inadvertently showed the police a fake treasure map that had also been stolen and asked police if they knew the address of a Mr. Blackbeard.  All the burglars are safely in jail this evening."

[Greg]

I was reading over this old thread. Not sure if it'd be really "legal" or not, but couldn't you just use a dremel on the coins that have "COPY" written on them? Then after you grind it off to put gold paint back over it and put it in a plastic case so it looks legit?

My guess would be most people willing to risk going into a house, etc. to find gold might not be thinking about using a tool to determine anything while they are in the house. They just want to find it and get out without getting caught. Then hopefully it takes a while before they realize they were boondoggled.

I do worry though, if they realized that you planted fakes (for instance if they tried to sell it and were turned away), would the added risk of them coming back to your house potentially with violence for revenge outweigh the loss of actual gold?

[Pointedstick]

I have a better idea than all these elaborate fake gold schemes: a safe, a dog, and a rifle.




Keeping your valuables safe from untrustworthy family members and acquaintances is a harder task, but then again, that's not just a problem for your gold.

[smurff]

After thinking about it for a time, it would seem to me that storing fakes in a manner that's too much like you would store real gold might actually attract criminals to return once they discover the stuff they stole was fake.  They now know you have something to hide, and if they're determined, can return to force you to turn over the real stuff.

It might be better to leave a few 1/10 oz lying around along with a few silver pieces, that won't attract suspicion to the larger stash.

[dualstow]

After thinking about it for a time, it would seem to me that storing fakes in a manner that's too much like you would store real gold might actually attract criminals to return once they discover the stuff they stole was fake.  They now know you have something to hide, and if they're determined, can return to force you to turn over the real stuff.

This is how I feel. I wouldn't want to piss off criminals with fake stuff unless I had plans to move out the next day. I'd rather have a stash of $1000-2000 in REAL bills for them to discover in a strongbox or desk drawer to keep them away from the real stash.

If someone finds out that I do have coins and I haven't moved them to a bank box, it's my fault.

[Tortoise]

I wouldn't want to piss off criminals with fake stuff unless I had plans to move out the next day. I'd rather have a stash of $1000-2000 in REAL bills for them to discover in a strongbox or desk drawer to keep them away from the real stash.

If someone finds out that I do have coins and I haven't moved them to a bank box, it's my fault.

How do we know that if the burglar finds the smaller $1000-$2000 stash, it won't simply motivate him to ransack your home even more thoroughly before he leaves? After all, when he finds the cash, he may wonder what other goodies you have hidden away in your home. Then again, it may have the very opposite effect; once he finds the cash he might leave quickly. How do we know which extreme is more likely?

I've heard stories of burglars breaking into a home, drinking some milk from the carton in the refrigerator, and then stealing a few inexpensive items while leaving obviously valuable items behind. I've also heard stories of burglars breaking into a home and practically turning the place upside down. And I'm sure everything in between happens sometimes, as well.

Trying to predict the actions of a burglar may be similar to trying to predict the market: there is too much uncertainty involved. If burglars had the same kind of thought processes as we do, they probably wouldn't be burglars in the first place. Who knows what goes through their crazy heads? Many (if not most) of them are drug addicts, and drug addiction doesn't exactly work wonders on one's rationality or predictability.

It just seems to me that once a burglar is in your home, all bets are off. You do everything you can to prevent him from breaking in in the first place, but if he chooses to, maybe the only strategy guaranteed to work every time is simply to make sure you don't have more cash and gold hidden in your home than you can reasonably afford to lose.

[dualstow]

I agree with everything you've said above, Tortoise. There's really no way to know if you're going to get a milk drinker, a rapist, a complete lunatic, or someone just looking for quick cash.

How do we know that if the burglar finds the smaller $1000-$2000 stash, it won't simply motivate him to ransack your home even more thoroughly before he leaves?

A long-time companion of mine once read a good book about urban survival written by someone in our city. The author grew up in a rough part of town but ended up in academia, so he had both first-hand experience and statistics on his side. One of the things he suggested was always having $20 in your pocket if you're going to be out late at night. Anything less, he suggested, and you're going to irk a mugger, who may take his frustrations out on you physically, especially if he believes you're holding out on him.

A couple years ago, I read about a guy who was robbed on the street, but the two crooks were unsatisfied with how much this guy was holding, so they escorted him to his own home and cleaned him out there. They left without physically harming him.

Again, it's totally possible that some psycho will hurt his victim(s) no matter how cooperative, how rich, how poor they are. But, I'm applying the carry $20 theory to my home. If someone is able to break in while my burglar alarm is off (rare), I think there's a better chance that he will take off with the $1000-2000 cash than stick around for diminishing returns.

On the flip side, if he finds *nothing*, he is more likely to put a gun to my head or threaten to harm me and/or my wife to get me to cough up something, anything. That's what I believe.

[MachineGhost]

http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/min ... ail&pid=34

[smurff]

http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/min ... ail&pid=34

Thanks MachineGhost. This gives me something to think about, for example buying at a coin show and being followed home.