I need to buy some gold!

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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I Shrugged
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I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:17 pm

I really want to buy a nice amount of gold overseas and have it stored in a vault in Singapore or Austria.
But I have no clue how to proceed. Which makes the whole thing pretty scary. Knowing who to trust, etc. Seems like it would be better done in person. But that's not in the cards.

Has anyone here done it remotely or in person?
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by dopplerdave » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:02 pm

I recommend Strategic Wealth Protection Cayman (SWPCayman.com). They have a ton of informative videos on line, and you can set up an account without visiting them.

I opened an account about 1-1/2 years ago, and they bought 2 Eagles for me. (I wanted to start slowly to see how they operated). More recently, I had them buy much more as I am basically reallocating half my savings to offshore gold coins. They are very professional and accessible. Their prices for buying and selling are posted and competitive. If you place a large order, it may take a few weeks for the coins to show up in your account, but it doesn't matter as the price is locked in when you place the order. You pay through a US bank account they have.

It was always my intent to visit them before doing this, but Cayman has been closed due to the Wuhan for a year, and I could not wait any longer. So I had a long conference call with Mark Yaxley who answered all my questions about their corporate structure, auditing system, insurance, etc. I am now in the process of shipping my existing gold coins to them for segregated storage.
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I Shrugged
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:31 pm

Thanks Dave. How will you ship your coins to them?
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by dopplerdave » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:55 pm

I don't think I should go into details on that here, but SWP made all the arrangements. The shipment was fully insured. The cost worked out to about 0.5% of the value of the coins. That is about the same as you pay them annually for storage. But this is way cheaper than selling them locally, then having SWP buy replacements. On US Eagles the spread was around 7.5% the last I looked so it was much better off paying for the shipment of existing coins. Of course these numbers may be different on a smaller sized shipment.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:13 pm

dopplerdave wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:55 pm
I don't think I should go into details on that here, but SWP made all the arrangements. The shipment was fully insured. The cost worked out to about 0.5% of the value of the coins. That is about the same as you pay them annually for storage. But this is way cheaper than selling them locally, then having SWP buy replacements. On US Eagles the spread was around 7.5% the last I looked so it was much better off paying for the shipment of existing coins. Of course these numbers may be different on a smaller sized shipment.
No, no details, I understand. Just wondering how you worked it out. So, thanks for all this. I have some homework to do.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by drumminj » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:10 am

Would you consider something like BullionVault, which has storage in Singapore, Switzerland, etc? You can have your holdings in specific reserved bars (by serial#) vs generic allocated storage, if you like.

I'm not affiliated, but am a customer.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:01 am

dopplerdave wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:02 pm

It was always my intent to visit them before doing this, but Cayman has been closed due to the Wuhan for a year, and I could not wait any longer.
I sort of understand why people want offshore storage, but I also see many downsides of any number of reasons (Covid, prime example) of not being able to get to your stash. War, government upheaval, weather, etc.

Personally, I'd rather have it within a car drive.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by Kbg » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:01 am
dopplerdave wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:02 pm

It was always my intent to visit them before doing this, but Cayman has been closed due to the Wuhan for a year, and I could not wait any longer.
I sort of understand why people want offshore storage, but I also see many downsides of any number of reasons (Covid, prime example) of not being able to get to your stash. War, government upheaval, weather, etc.

Personally, I'd rather have it within a car drive.
Completely agree...I don't really get it and if it really is there for SHTF scenarios what happens if you can't get to it? One has to assume a lot of stuff.

Assumption: You recognize SHTF before it actually does hit so you can travel

Assumption: You CAN travel

Assumption: "Your" gold is actually there. Even if you saw "your" gold, who is to say they don't just show the same bars to everyone

Assumption: You can get your gold and take it somewhere

Assumption: It is enough to pay for essentially restarting your life elsewhere

Assumption: You know where elsewhere is beforehand and you have a place there

Assumption: That place will let you and your gold in

Assumption: Someone doesn't steal your gold while you are in transit

Personally, I have always come down on the side of land, guns and food storage/ability to grow your own food. If one is truly the paranoid type, this seems way more sensible and likely to work. Of course people with bigger/more guns can always come take the stuff and kick you off your land but that's the case with gold and gold is mobile whereas land is not.

Of course doom and gloom is what markets gold storage companies so there's that.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:29 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:01 am
dopplerdave wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:02 pm

It was always my intent to visit them before doing this, but Cayman has been closed due to the Wuhan for a year, and I could not wait any longer.
I sort of understand why people want offshore storage, but I also see many downsides of any number of reasons (Covid, prime example) of not being able to get to your stash. War, government upheaval, weather, etc.

Personally, I'd rather have it within a car drive.
It doesn't have to be "either or".
I want enough overseas that if things get bad here and we have to (kbg: and are able to) de-camp, we'd have real wealth somewhere else. But I want some here too.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:37 am

drumminj wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:10 am
Would you consider something like BullionVault, which has storage in Singapore, Switzerland, etc? You can have your holdings in specific reserved bars (by serial#) vs generic allocated storage, if you like.

I'm not affiliated, but am a customer.
I looked at them a lot. I never like to be a pioneer. So I take it you like them?

My view is, I can afford to lose X dollars trying this. I would not like to lose X, but it wouldn't change our lives. OTOH if it is ever needed, having it could very much change our lives. We could live on X for a while, overseas.

To me the likeliest form of loss is after we are dead and gone. Gotta make sure our heirs know what to do.
Last edited by I Shrugged on Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by Kbg » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:37 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:29 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:01 am
dopplerdave wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:02 pm

It was always my intent to visit them before doing this, but Cayman has been closed due to the Wuhan for a year, and I could not wait any longer.
I sort of understand why people want offshore storage, but I also see many downsides of any number of reasons (Covid, prime example) of not being able to get to your stash. War, government upheaval, weather, etc.

Personally, I'd rather have it within a car drive.
It doesn't have to be "either or".
I want enough overseas that if things get bad here and we have to (kbg: and are able to) de-camp, we'd have real wealth somewhere else. But I want some here too.
Classic physical diversification which I won't argue against as a good principle for diversifying. I do think the foreign allocation is more not less risky, but at the end of the day if one has thought through the numerous assumptions I listed above and are good with them then who am I to say that's a bad choice. Even stating the foreign location is more risky is an assumption about conditions here on my part.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:45 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:37 am

Even stating the foreign location is more risky is an assumption about conditions here on my part.
Yes. We Americans are pretty blind about things like this. I would place the USA as probably not even in the top 5 of desirable places to vault one's gold. From my limited reading of course. But off the top of my head, Switzerland, Austria, Singapore, are undoubtably safer. Probably Liectenstein and even London before the US. The political winds in the USA are scary enough that I definitely don't want all of our wealth within its reach. And there is always the possibility of WW3 at some point. You can bet that we will be in the middle of that.

All that said, there are probably some in China and Singapore who are sending their gold to a US vault for the same reasons.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by drumminj » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:37 am
I looked at them a lot. I never like to be a pioneer. So I take it you like them?
So far I've been happy, but it's easy to be happy in "good" times. I've never withdrawn money, or physical metal, so I can't speak to that. For now, they're just a place I've sent money and they tell me they're holding something for me in exchange :)

I do like that you can buy/vault your gold in different locations, allocate physical bars, and theoretically go and walk out with your physical bars. At the same point in time, you can sell it immediately/electronically for fiatscos.

Are they any better than an ETF? Won't know until STHF, but I use them as part of my diversification strategy
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:11 pm

drumminj wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:37 am
...
So far I've been happy, but it's easy to be happy in "good" times.
For those of you who have gold offshore, or even further than a drive, do you have something in place where your spouse or heirs can recover it without complications? Recover doesn't have to mean taking physical possession; recognition by the company you're working with is enough.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by drumminj » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:15 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:11 pm
For those of you who have gold offshore, or even further than a drive, do you have something in place where your spouse or heirs can recover it without complications? Recover doesn't have to mean taking physical possession; recognition by the company you're working with is enough.
Does having the account titled in a trust of which they're a trustee meet your criteria?
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:36 pm

Absolutely.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:28 am

drumminj wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:10 am
Would you consider something like BullionVault, which has storage in Singapore, Switzerland, etc? You can have your holdings in specific reserved bars (by serial#) vs generic allocated storage, if you like.

I'm not affiliated, but am a customer.
I'm looking at their website now.
Storage fee is only 0.01% per month? 0.12% per year??? That's excellent. And it includes insurance.

Now I need to learn the details of where I would be wiring money to, and whether the cash account with them is a foreign bank account.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:42 am

I see I would be choosing an alias name which will appear publicly in a daily audit list.
I'm thinking "HunterBiden".
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by sophie » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:55 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:28 am
drumminj wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:10 am
Would you consider something like BullionVault, which has storage in Singapore, Switzerland, etc? You can have your holdings in specific reserved bars (by serial#) vs generic allocated storage, if you like.

I'm not affiliated, but am a customer.
I'm looking at their website now.
Storage fee is only 0.01% per month? 0.12% per year??? That's excellent. And it includes insurance.

Now I need to learn the details of where I would be wiring money to, and whether the cash account with them is a foreign bank account.
My big question with services like these is whether they really do substitute for physical gold held in your own possession - totally outside the financial system. If it's a US based account that feeds the gold purchases, then they report transactions to the IRS and are subject to US law, right? If outside the US then you have to file FATCA annually.

I went with Perth Mint for on online gold choice because even though I have to file FATCA, they don't report to the US government and they are clear about that on their website. They set up your account specifically to circumvent the rules that would require such reporting - mainly by having you link one bank account that you can't change without going through a very arduous process.

Of course, I recognize that even this is no substitute for gold coins in your direct possession. I need more of those for sure. I'm in rebalance territory and when I pull the trigger sometime in the next month, it'll involve buying coins.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:26 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:55 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:28 am
drumminj wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:10 am
Would you consider something like BullionVault, which has storage in Singapore, Switzerland, etc? You can have your holdings in specific reserved bars (by serial#) vs generic allocated storage, if you like.

I'm not affiliated, but am a customer.
I'm looking at their website now.
Storage fee is only 0.01% per month? 0.12% per year??? That's excellent. And it includes insurance.

Now I need to learn the details of where I would be wiring money to, and whether the cash account with them is a foreign bank account.
My big question with services like these is whether they really do substitute for physical gold held in your own possession - totally outside the financial system. If it's a US based account that feeds the gold purchases, then they report transactions to the IRS and are subject to US law, right? If outside the US then you have to file FATCA annually.

I went with Perth Mint for on online gold choice because even though I have to file FATCA, they don't report to the US government and they are clear about that on their website. They set up your account specifically to circumvent the rules that would require such reporting - mainly by having you link one bank account that you can't change without going through a very arduous process.

Of course, I recognize that even this is no substitute for gold coins in your direct possession. I need more of those for sure. I'm in rebalance territory and when I pull the trigger sometime in the next month, it'll involve buying coins.
For US residents:
https://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/ ... dents.html

They say they are not reporting anything under FATCA:
We have taken advice as to our obligations under the terms of the legislation enacting that Agreement and are satisfied that we have no reporting obligations (beyond what is already required by the Money Laundering Regulations 2007). Should the law or our business model change forcing us to become a reporting entity we would of course inform our customers and in due course comply.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by sophie » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:14 pm

But you still have to file FBAR and the income tax form when your holdings hit the appropriate thresholds. They're careful not to tell you but they kinda do.

Arguments for not having to file?? I don't know of any I'd rely on.

I've looked into these services in the past and I always come to the same conclusion. If you pay for your gold and access the account online, you have to file. The only way to stay under the radar is to buy coins in lots of < $10K at a time, and store it yourself. Given that we are likely headed toward a wealth tax, buying coins seems like the most prudent move.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by drumminj » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:58 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:14 pm
But you still have to file FBAR and the income tax form when your holdings hit the appropriate thresholds.
My CPA advised me otherwise. Not saying the IRS will agree, but when I inquired about bullion held overseas I was told such reporting wasn't required.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by drumminj » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:00 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:28 am
Now I need to learn the details of where I would be wiring money to, and whether the cash account with them is a foreign bank account.
I just use the bill pay function of my local credit union to get funds there...haven't had an issue with it/need to use wire transfers.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:26 pm

As a non CPA, I could easily argue that I was confused about the reporting requirements. Moi? They're holding my gold. I thought you only wanted to know about checking accounts. My bad.
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Re: I need to buy some gold!

Post by sophie » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:17 am

Don't think that would get you off the hook, Mark.

From what I've read, allocated storage of physical gold in a safe deposit box or wine vault or whatever, is not subject to reporting requirements. But, unallocated accounts like the Perth Mint are. It helps of course that the IRS is not at all clear on this point which means they can interpret it however they want. You on the other hand don't have that luxury.

I could convert Perth Mint to allocated storage (of bars) but that would be expensive - they charge 1%/year storage fee. If I took delivery of the bars, they might be hard to sell to anyone except Perth Mint.

What kind of storage is Bullionvault? If it's anything but allocated, I'm not sure it's really worry-free on the FBAR front.
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