Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
shekels
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:01 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by shekels » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:56 am

shekels wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:06 am


Rep. Giovanni Capriglione, a Republican from Southlake who authored the resolution that put the measure on the ballot, said removing the possibility of a tax would make Texas a more desirable place for people from all over to store their precious metals, allowing the state to better compete with other states that don’t tax precious metal deposits.

“Texas is going to be the only state in the country that will have no state income taxes, sales taxes or property taxes on gold or silver,” Capriglione said.
And having Gold in Texas is not a bad Idea with increasing political polarization.
So when the U.S. breaks up into Regions, Texas can have it's own Gold Bullion Vault. :)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3513
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by sophie » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
technovelist gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
Not so sure about that. AAAU is backed by Perth Mint's gold, so the Australian government might possibly have something to say about a seizure of their sovereign assets.

I'd guess that bullion held in a private or state-run repository within US borders would be a whole lot more of a vulnerable target. Any state sensibilities would be pretty simply overcome by invoking the "it's only going to affect the rich and who cares about them" line. That's why there wasn't much of an uproar when it was last done in the 1930s.
User avatar
technovelist
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5630
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by technovelist » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:28 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
technovelist gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
Not so sure about that. AAAU is backed by Perth Mint's gold, so the Australian government might possibly have something to say about a seizure of their sovereign assets.
It wouldn't be a seizure of their assets. It would be a seizure of others' claims on those assets.
sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm
I'd guess that bullion held in a private or state-run repository within US borders would be a whole lot more of a vulnerable target. Any state sensibilities would be pretty simply overcome by invoking the "it's only going to affect the rich and who cares about them" line. That's why there wasn't much of an uproar when it was last done in the 1930s.
Private, yes.

But when was gold in a state-run depository confiscated?
Never, because there weren't any until now.

Or do you think the Texas legislature was just posturing when they said that the depository would ignore attempts by other (non-Texan) governmental agencies to confiscate deposits?

Because I think they know exactly what their rights and powers are.
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by pugchief » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm

I think you are all deluding yourselves if you think that if the US government wants to seize or tax your gold that holding it in TX or AU or anywhere else is going to matter. See FACTA. That has worked so well that the Swiss banking cartel basically quit offering US accounts.

You also underestimate the fervor of the far left to redistribute wealth.
User avatar
technovelist
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5630
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by technovelist » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:58 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm
I think you are all deluding yourselves if you think that if the US government wants to seize or tax your gold that holding it in TX or AU or anywhere else is going to matter. See FACTA. That has worked so well that the Swiss banking cartel basically quit offering US accounts.
I'm intimately familiar with that situation, thanks. But the State of Texas has a greater incentive, and more legal ability, to fight, than the Swiss did.
pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm
You also underestimate the fervor of the far left to redistribute wealth.
No, I'm sure they are quite fervid enough.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:35 am
jacksonm2 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:28 pm
I have no idea where she will get that money but a 100 percent ad valorem tax on gold wherever she can get her hands on it it will probably be way more easy to get from the Texas depository than the Perth Mint.
technovelist gave a good reply to this, but I'd also like to point out that while the Feds may have trouble seizing gold from the Perth Mint, they would have much, much less trouble seizing shares of AAAU that are held in a nationwide brokerage based in New York.
Not so sure about that. AAAU is backed by Perth Mint's gold, so the Australian government might possibly have something to say about a seizure of their sovereign assets.

I'd guess that bullion held in a private or state-run repository within US borders would be a whole lot more of a vulnerable target. Any state sensibilities would be pretty simply overcome by invoking the "it's only going to affect the rich and who cares about them" line. That's why there wasn't much of an uproar when it was last done in the 1930s.
States have constitutionally protected rights to create a gold backed currency. This is exactly what Texas is doing. As such it’s extremely unlikely the Feds can seize the gold at the depository, force sale of gold at the depository to the Feds, and if challenged by Texas, it is likely they can’t enforce capital gains tax or enact any windfall profits tax on gold in the Texas Bullion Depository. These are constitutional protections you can’t get with any overseas gold holding or gold stored in a domestic bank safe deposit box.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:02 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:05 pm
I think you are all deluding yourselves if you think that if the US government wants to seize or tax your gold that holding it in TX or AU or anywhere else is going to matter. See FACTA. That has worked so well that the Swiss banking cartel basically quit offering US accounts.

You also underestimate the fervor of the far left to redistribute wealth.
Article 10 of the Constitution gives states to right to issue gold backed currency. Once the Texas Depository issues its debit card this next spring, it will have accomplished this. At that point the feds can't touch or even tax the gold.
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3176
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:26 pm

FarmerD wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm
, and if challenged by Texas, it is likely they can’t enforce capital gains tax ...
We need a test case for this one!
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3176
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by ochotona » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Confusing language:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

So States can't make coins.. but they can make "things" which are gold and silver coins which can be tendered to pay debts... sounds contradictory.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2524
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by Xan » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:38 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm
Confusing language:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

So States can't make coins.. but they can make "things" which are gold and silver coins which can be tendered to pay debts... sounds contradictory.
No, they can't make anything other than gold and silver coins into a currency.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:46 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm
Confusing language:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

So States can't make coins.. but they can make "things" which are gold and silver coins which can be tendered to pay debts... sounds contradictory.
This means States can't issue fiat currency so they can't take a round piece of iron, copper, etc. and stamp a currency value on it, in other words they can't make quarters, nickels, dimes etc.. However, they are allowed to use gold or silver bullion as money.
FarmerD
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Texas Statewide Proposition 9, November 2019 Election

Post by FarmerD » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:51 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:26 pm
FarmerD wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:49 pm
, and if challenged by Texas, it is likely they can’t enforce capital gains tax ...
We need a test case for this one!
I visited the depository a couple weeks ago. One of the managers said Texas has sent letters to the IRS over the past year or two but have not gotten any responses. He would not tell exactly what those letters asked the IRS but I think its obvious what Texas was inquiring about.
Post Reply