American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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ochotona
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ochotona » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:18 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:12 pm
Did you have any systematic way of apportioning? Like 75% of purchases of one and 25% for the other? Or, has it been more haphazard?

Thanks

Vinny
jacksonm2 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:03 pm
I have some of both, but mostly American Eagles.
I figure I should have enough ETF to do my first major rebalance when I hit the rebalance band. I have 75% physical. Beyond that there's no predicting.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:11 pm

From what I have gathered you pay a premium on buying the Eagle but you also get a premium when you sell it. I've not yet acquired enough information to determine if they come out the same in the long run or buying and selling one or the other is superior.

Vinny
jacksonm2 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:08 pm
vnatale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:12 pm
Did you have any systematic way of apportioning? Like 75% of purchases of one and 25% for the other? Or, has it been more haphazard?

Thanks

Vinny
More haphazard than systematic, to be sure.

Bought mostly Eagles until one day I thought it would be cool to buy some other kinds and Maple Leafs were my choice.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by geaux saints » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:11 pm

If it were me, I would go with the lowest premium one ounce coin I could find. Better to take the lower premium now than hope for a higher one on resale.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ochotona » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm

I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by pugchief » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 am

ochotona wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm
I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
LOL. There are plenty of cost benefits of ETFs over physical, but $4.95 commissions was not one that made any difference.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ochotona » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:42 am

pugchief wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 am
ochotona wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm
I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
LOL. There are plenty of cost benefits of ETFs over physical, but $4.95 commissions was not one that made any difference.
I am so cheap
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:47 am

Really, Pug? It makes a difference to me. I don’t buy fractional coins because of the markup. Always one ounce. With gold ETFs, I wanted to dollar cost average, but paying $5 each time I buy, and for an instrument that doesn’t pay dividends, just doesn’t make sense to me.

With zero trading fees, I could spend less than the spot price (or more) total, and buy every week.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by pugchief » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:42 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:47 am
Really, Pug? It makes a difference to me. I don’t buy fractional coins because of the markup. Always one ounce. With gold ETFs, I wanted to dollar cost average, but paying $5 each time I buy, and for an instrument that doesn’t pay dividends, just doesn’t make sense to me.

With zero trading fees, I could spend less than the spot price (or more) total, and buy every week.
DS, you misunderstood my point. When you figure in buy/sell spreads on physical* and markup, plus the cost of storage, insurance, etc, any ETF at .3% a year or less is saving you a ton of money, even with $4.95 commissions. I agree that if you are making many small purchases those $5 dings add up, but consolidating to, say, once per quarter gives you DCA and costs $20/year and just doesn't compare to the costs of physical.

There are some advantages to physical over ETFs, but cost is not one of them.


*(btw Ocho, you talk about MOC orders to avoid the spread of a couple of cent on ETFs while not concerning yourself on the insane spread on coins?)
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ochotona » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:26 pm

Yeah, if AAAU existed while I was buying coins, I'd have bought a lot fewer coins. My buying wound down just as AAAU was launching. Can't do anything about that now. No further action until a rebalance band is hit, and I'm using the wide ones. It will be years before I do anything else with gold or gold ETFs.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:46 pm

pugchief wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:42 pm
...
I agree that if you are making many small purchases those $5 dings add up, but consolidating to, say, once per quarter gives you DCA and costs $20/year and just doesn't compare to the costs of physical.

There are some advantages to physical over ETFs, but cost is not one of them.
For sure.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by vnatale » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:07 pm

ochotona wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm
I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
You have no concerns with AAAU's relative tiny size compared to the much larger EFTs ahead of it?

Vinny
Last edited by vnatale on Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ochotona » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:07 pm
ochotona wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm
I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
You have no concerns with AAAU's relative tiny size compared to the much larger EFTs ahead of it?

Vinny
ZERO concerns about size. ETFs that are destined for the woodchipper struggle to grown past $10-$20 million. AAAU has quickly grown to ten times that size.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by tomfoolery » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:49 pm

My problem with American Gold Eagles as compared to Maple Leaves is that it's a lot harder to forge a 99.9999% coin than a 93% coin. So, as counterfeit technology improves, we're likely to see more convincing counterfeit eagles than maple leaves.

I find putting maple leaves in $1 air-tite brand capsules to be sufficient to keep them from getting scratched.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by vnatale » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:08 pm

ochotona wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:47 pm
vnatale wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:07 pm
ochotona wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm
I've looked at the buy / sell prices over a number of years over a number of dealers, and the Eagles are always the round-trip losers. That said, I probably will never buy another coin, and will be buying ETF AAAU in the future, now that there is no longer any commission to buy it.
You have no concerns with AAAU's relative tiny size compared to the much larger EFTs ahead of it?

Vinny
ZERO concerns about size. ETFs that are destined for the woodchipper struggle to grown past $10-$20 million. AAAU has quickly grown to ten times that size.
Are you saying it is in the $100 million to $200 million range? If so that seems super tiny in the financial world.

Vinny
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ochotona » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:54 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:08 pm

Are you saying it is in the $100 million to $200 million range? If so that seems super tiny in the financial world.

Vinny

It's $220 million, and that's of no concern for buy and hold investors.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by SomeDude » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:02 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:49 pm
My problem with American Gold Eagles as compared to Maple Leaves is that it's a lot harder to forge a 99.9999% coin than a 93% coin. So, as counterfeit technology improves, we're likely to see more convincing counterfeit eagles than maple leaves.

I find putting maple leaves in $1 air-tite brand capsules to be sufficient to keep them from getting scratched.
Very good point on the forgeries. New maples are infinitely more difficult if not impossible to forge well. Its probably not economical. The design complexity, radial lines, and privy mark on the new ones make them unparalleled in the world i think for security.

The US mint is trying to catch up and adding security features in 2021.

I have a few maples and many many more eagles of various sizes, proofs etc.

I would still prefer eagles in the US for liquidity. If you buy from a reputable dealer you're fine and a good visual inspection and ping test if you're at an LCS and you're fine there too.

Maples are more beautiful but if you want a real sexy coin i don't think you can do better than a 2020 Britannia.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by dualstow » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:20 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:49 pm
My problem with American Gold Eagles as compared to Maple Leaves is that it's a lot harder to forge a 99.9999% coin than a 93% coin.

I keep reading that as forge, like in a furnace. Forging a sword.
What is the verb for committing a forgery anyway?
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by SomeDude » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:09 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:20 am
What is the verb for committing a forgery anyway?
Pretty sure it's forge as in "forge someone's signature".
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by dualstow » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:15 am

Yeah, I guess that must be right.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by ppnewbie » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:26 pm

This video contains the Eagle, Buffalo, and Maple Leaf
The only thing to note is that SWP probably has a global perspective vs. what is best for US residents.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1xEx0yoDlWk
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by SomeDude » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:00 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:26 pm
This video contains the Eagle, Buffalo, and Maple Leaf
The only thing to note is that SWP probably has a global perspective vs. what is best for US residents.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1xEx0yoDlWk
Eagles probably can't be beat but these are all great coins.
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Re: American Eagle or Canadian Maple Leaf?

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:28 am

Here in Canada the Canadian Maple Leaf bullion coins are not subject to sales tax. Many foreign coins are. As a result, for us, it's a no-brainer to just go with the Maple Leafs.
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