Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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johnnywitt
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Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by johnnywitt » Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:10 pm

How do you go about insuring a Safety Deposit Box with bullion? Or, do you insure it at all? I got quotes of like 1.32 per $100.00 (they insure it as jewelry) which is insane IMO since it is kept in a safety deposit box inside a bank. I even asked for the coverage to be valid inside the bank box only to no avail. Also, the value is constantly changing as the spot fluctuates and hopefully, you are adding bullion coins to your box throughout the year, so it's hard to get an insurance amount. Do you just overshoot and buy more coverage than the amount of coins you possess.

Do you use the minimum recommendation of HB in physical of 15% and keep the rest in an ETF for rebalancing purposes, or just bite the bullet and go all physical?

I'm trying to get going on a PP and right now I'm sitting in SHV and VGSH split evenly just waiting to deploy. I'm trying to iron out all the logistics with Gold being the most problematical at the moment.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by mathjak107 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:11 pm

Make sure your bank allows gold ...chase does not and some other banks joined them
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by vnatale » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:22 pm

johnnywitt wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:10 pm
How do you go about insuring a Safety Deposit Box with bullion? Or, do you insure it at all? I got quotes of like 1.32 per $100.00 (they insure it as jewelry) which is insane IMO since it is kept in a safety deposit box inside a bank. I even asked for the coverage to be valid inside the bank box only to no avail. Also, the value is constantly changing as the spot fluctuates and hopefully, you are adding bullion coins to your box throughout the year, so it's hard to get an insurance amount. Do you just overshoot and buy more coverage than the amount of coins you possess.

Do you use the minimum recommendation of HB in physical of 15% and keep the rest in an ETF for rebalancing purposes, or just bite the bullet and go all physical?

I'm trying to get going on a PP and right now I'm sitting in SHV and VGSH split evenly just waiting to deploy. I'm trying to iron out all the logistics with Gold being the most problematical at the moment.
Go to these topics and look around for the posts discussing insuring gold:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10005&sid=65d23e4fc ... 779e6b57d0

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10119

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10296

Vinny
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Jim Burnham » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:51 am

You might consider, rather than insuring bullion in a safety deposit box, something like Hard Assets Alliance (https://hardassetsalliance.com/). Their storage fees are the same for all vaults: 0.7%/year of average daily asset value for gold, platinum, and palladium, and 0.8%/year for silver, or lower for higher value accounts. ($5/month minimum per account; waived for accounts with MetalStream activated. Storage is billed quarterly.)

There are certainly other companies that do essentially the same thing.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:33 pm

Jim Burnham wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:51 am
You might consider, rather than insuring bullion in a safety deposit box, something like Hard Assets Alliance (https://hardassetsalliance.com/). Their storage fees are the same for all vaults: 0.7%/year of average daily asset value for gold, platinum, and palladium, and 0.8%/year for silver, or lower for higher value accounts. ($5/month minimum per account; waived for accounts with MetalStream activated. Storage is billed quarterly.)

There are certainly other companies that do essentially the same thing.
It would be nice if they spelled out what "higher value accounts" actually means to them. $50k? $250k?
Otherwise it's hard to tell if their fees are reasonable.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by murphy_p_t » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:05 pm

There is a company called safe deposit box insurance.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:49 pm

Anonymity and diversification are the best insurance.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by sophie » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:46 am

If you're going to go with a storage service like Hard Assets Alliance, look carefully at the numbers. It's not just about the storage fee.

They don't allow you to store gold you already own, you have to buy it from them. And, their prices are higher than you can find elsewhere (e.g. Colorado Gold), amounting to a hidden 5% purchase fee. No idea what the sell fee is but I'm sure there is one.

Depending on Fidelity's coin pricing, they may be a better bet. Fidelity offers gold bullion purchase & storage (including in IRAs) at a combination of buy/sell fees that total just under 5%, with an annual storage fee of 0.5% (0.125% per quarter). Also the Texas depository might have a better deal, since last I checked their terms were better than Fidelity's.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:25 am

sophie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:46 am
If you're going to go with a storage service like Hard Assets Alliance, look carefully at the numbers. It's not just about the storage fee.

They don't allow you to store gold you already own, you have to buy it from them. And, their prices are higher than you can find elsewhere (e.g. Colorado Gold), amounting to a hidden 5% purchase fee. No idea what the sell fee is but I'm sure there is one.

Depending on Fidelity's coin pricing, they may be a better bet. Fidelity offers gold bullion purchase & storage (including in IRAs) at a combination of buy/sell fees that total just under 5%, with an annual storage fee of 0.5% (0.125% per quarter). Also the Texas depository might have a better deal, since last I checked their terms were better than Fidelity's.
Any gold storage/sales company that doesn't post its entire price schedule has something to hide. Of course buy/sell spreads will vary with market conditions, but any other markups/markdowns should be stated clearly.

The dealers associated with TBD have pretty good prices in my experience, and their storage fees are the same as Fidelity's. You can do even better with fees for an IRA at Gold Star Trust.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by johnnywitt » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:36 am

Sincere thanks for all the replies with special thanks to Vnatale!
So, HB warned about storing your Gold with a Gold Dealer. He also talked about GoldMoney and he said no thanks to that to a caller on the Money Show.I believe that a Safety Deposit Box is the best bet for me
Oh, and my local bank does allow gold storage, or more specifically, they don't prohibit it. The Lady I talked to acted like I was asking to store radioactive plutonium in the box or something and had to 'get back with me'.
These People do not want you to own gold.

In my IRA SDA I think I will just own SGOL & maybe IAU for diversification purposes.

Just an idea, but does anyone just keep their PM in a box without insurance. I plan to work up to 15% in physical and the rest in the ETF's as stated. I guess the question is how safe is a 'Safe Deposit Box' anyhow?

Bottom line is that any Gold that isn't in your possession to the extent of at least having it in a safety deposit box, in a local bank, is Gold that maybe is just better off in an ETF IMHO. The whole point is to reduce any counterparty risk. Even keeping it in a SDB is at least some counterparty risk that we get a bank holiday, or that do to civil unrest, they close the bank. If it is in any recognized gold storage it would be easy pickings for any government intervention. All per HB, Craig & Tex AFAIK.
Again, being a newbie here, I don't want to come off as some kind of a know it all. I really appreciate the more experienced opinions here on a complicated issue. The rest of the PP is pretty simple and straightforward, but the Gold part really isn't these days since, alas, Swiss Bank Storage has now gone by the wayside, well, for any body except the Mitt Romney's et.al.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Jim Burnham » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:50 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:33 pm
Jim Burnham wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:51 am
You might consider, rather than insuring bullion in a safety deposit box, something like Hard Assets Alliance (https://hardassetsalliance.com/). Their storage fees are the same for all vaults: 0.7%/year of average daily asset value for gold, platinum, and palladium, and 0.8%/year for silver, or lower for higher value accounts. ($5/month minimum per account; waived for accounts with MetalStream activated. Storage is billed quarterly.)

There are certainly other companies that do essentially the same thing.
It would be nice if they spelled out what "higher value accounts" actually means to them. $50k? $250k?
Otherwise it's hard to tell if their fees are reasonable.
That is a good question and I have written them an email today to ask what amount would constitute a "higher value account". If I get a reply I will post that answer here.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Jim Burnham » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:55 am

sophie wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:46 am
If you're going to go with a storage service like Hard Assets Alliance, look carefully at the numbers. It's not just about the storage fee.

They don't allow you to store gold you already own, you have to buy it from them. And, their prices are higher than you can find elsewhere (e.g. Colorado Gold), amounting to a hidden 5% purchase fee. No idea what the sell fee is but I'm sure there is one.

Depending on Fidelity's coin pricing, they may be a better bet. Fidelity offers gold bullion purchase & storage (including in IRAs) at a combination of buy/sell fees that total just under 5%, with an annual storage fee of 0.5% (0.125% per quarter). Also the Texas depository might have a better deal, since last I checked their terms were better than Fidelity's.
Now that is indeed interesting as I did not know about Fidelity's service. I will have to check into that - thank you for that pointer! HAA may have a certain premium built in, but I honestly have not seen much difference between their prices and those of APMEX, so I will have to check that out too.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:34 pm

johnnywitt wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:36 am
Sincere thanks for all the replies with special thanks to Vnatale!
So, HB warned about storing your Gold with a Gold Dealer. He also talked about GoldMoney and he said no thanks to that to a caller on the Money Show.I believe that a Safety Deposit Box is the best bet for me
Oh, and my local bank does allow gold storage, or more specifically, they don't prohibit it. The Lady I talked to acted like I was asking to store radioactive plutonium in the box or something and had to 'get back with me'.
These People do not want you to own gold.

In my IRA SDA I think I will just own SGOL & maybe IAU for diversification purposes.

Just an idea, but does anyone just keep their PM in a box without insurance. I plan to work up to 15% in physical and the rest in the ETF's as stated. I guess the question is how safe is a 'Safe Deposit Box' anyhow?

Bottom line is that any Gold that isn't in your possession to the extent of at least having it in a safety deposit box, in a local bank, is Gold that maybe is just better off in an ETF IMHO. The whole point is to reduce any counterparty risk. Even keeping it in a SDB is at least some counterparty risk that we get a bank holiday, or that do to civil unrest, they close the bank. If it is in any recognized gold storage it would be easy pickings for any government intervention. All per HB, Craig & Tex AFAIK.
Again, being a newbie here, I don't want to come off as some kind of a know it all. I really appreciate the more experienced opinions here on a complicated issue. The rest of the PP is pretty simple and straightforward, but the Gold part really isn't these days since, alas, Swiss Bank Storage has now gone by the wayside, well, for any body except the Mitt Romney's et.al.
Not really true, depending on your definition of "Swiss Bank Storage". Global Gold stores your gold in the Zurich transit warehouse, which is about as safe as anywhere in the world.

Rates (first column of rates is for gold, platinum, and palladium; second is for silver):
Aggregated value of metals in Storage (CHF)
50'000 - 100'000 0.70% 1.30%
100'000 - 250'000 0.60% 1.10%
250'000 - 500'000 0.50% 0.90%
500'000 - 1'000'000 0.45% 0.80%
1'000'000 and more 0.40% 0.70%
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:14 pm

I have a few coins in a safe deposit box with no insurance. 10 ounces or so. Maybe enough to scrape our way to the border, and across. In the grand scheme I can afford the risk. At least I guess so based on my actions. :)
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by boglerdude » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:38 pm

Relax. Keep a few coins on hand for bribes and 0-25% in AAAU. If you own your home thats part of your inflation protection.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by johnnywitt » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:32 am

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:38 pm
Relax. Keep a few coins on hand for bribes and 0-25% in AAAU. If you own your home thats part of your inflation protection.
Why AAAU instead of IAU & SGOL?
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by PrimalToker » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:06 pm

johnnywitt wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:32 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:38 pm
Relax. Keep a few coins on hand for bribes and 0-25% in AAAU. If you own your home thats part of your inflation protection.
Why AAAU instead of IAU & SGOL?
AAAU is redeemable in physical gold and backed by the Perth Mint. They have a good reputation compared to who holds the gold in other ETFs.
https://aaauetf.com/
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by johnnywitt » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:36 pm

PrimalToker wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:06 pm
johnnywitt wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:32 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:38 pm
Relax. Keep a few coins on hand for bribes and 0-25% in AAAU. If you own your home thats part of your inflation protection.
Why AAAU instead of IAU & SGOL?
AAAU is redeemable in physical gold and backed by the Perth Mint. They have a good reputation compared to who holds the gold in other ETFs.
https://aaauetf.com/
The Aussies, to my mind, are merely American Puppets beholden to the American Empire. They lost their taste for freedom a long time ago and one can see that they have a history of gold confiscation along with a punitive gold tax (repealed in 1947). They also still have Part IV of their Banking Act which further clouds my view of putting my Gold in their custody. I'm not putting down the Australian People here, but they pretty much don't have a free country anymore than we here in the "Land of the Free" do.
At least some of the Gold in SGOL is kept in Switzerland, which absolutely does have a history with not jacking with Peoples' Gold. I don't trust Australia any more than I trust Great Britain, the E U, or this utterly corrupt Country. After all, this is the reason to own Gold in the first place. I think Physical in an insured SDB is the way to go. Hard to execute for a lot of Folks though. So, they're forced to go into the ETF world. Who can possibly know which, if any, of the ETF's will survive? Maybe GLD will be the one, surprisingly, despite having HSBC as the Custodian. One just never knows what the future will bring.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by dopplerdave » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:20 am

I do not trust safety deposit boxes. Banks occasionally close or remodel their branches and sometimes consolidate their boxes. There are horror stories elsewhere on this site about what has happened. Some years ago, I put my gold in a Wells Fargo branch and arranged for the annual fee to be paid from a Wells Fargo debit card linked to my bank account there. A couple years later I was unable to access my box because the fees were not paid. It turned out the card had been canceled after my wallet was stolen. It took them 2 weeks to sort things out before I could access my box. I have opened an account now with SWPCAYMAN and kept a small number of coins in it for about one year. (They can buy and sell for you as well as provide segregated storage). And they are insured by Lloyd's. So far I am very impressed, but I plan to pay them a visit as soon as Cayman opens again to visitors to see the facility and meet the people before moving my US gold there. (It is much cheaper to move via an armored service than to sell and repurchase). I would be very interested in knowing if anyone else has had experience with them.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by johnnywitt » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:28 pm

dopplerdave wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:20 am
I do not trust safety deposit boxes. Banks occasionally close or remodel their branches and sometimes consolidate their boxes. There are horror stories elsewhere on this site about what has happened. Some years ago, I put my gold in a Wells Fargo branch and arranged for the annual fee to be paid from a Wells Fargo debit card linked to my bank account there. A couple years later I was unable to access my box because the fees were not paid. It turned out the card had been canceled after my wallet was stolen. It took them 2 weeks to sort things out before I could access my box. I have opened an account now with SWPCAYMAN and kept a small number of coins in it for about one year. (They can buy and sell for you as well as provide segregated storage). And they are insured by Lloyd's. So far I am very impressed, but I plan to pay them a visit as soon as Cayman opens again to visitors to see the facility and meet the people before moving my US gold there. (It is much cheaper to move via an armored service than to sell and repurchase). I would be very interested in knowing if anyone else has had experience with them.
That's why you need insurance!
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by dopplerdave » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:27 am

Their rate schedule is posted at https://swpcayman.com/storage/segregated. For gold it is 0.7% for <250K and 0.5% for more. $200 min per year.
Has anyone else used them?
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by sophie » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 am

SWP looks interesting.

Does anyone know what the FATCA reporting requirements are for an Active Non-Financial Foreign Entity such as this? For individuals, I mean. The business is not required to report to the US government - but individual account holders may have to do so.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Xan » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:12 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 am
SWP looks interesting.

Does anyone know what the FATCA reporting requirements are for an Active Non-Financial Foreign Entity such as this? For individuals, I mean. The business is not required to report to the US government - but individual account holders may have to do so.
And there are some extremely nasty penalties for failing to report foreign holdings. As in they're really not kidding around. You can accidentally commit a felony very easily. It makes me very leery of even considering something like that.

I'm sure that's part of the point. Well it's working!
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:12 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:41 am
SWP looks interesting.

Does anyone know what the FATCA reporting requirements are for an Active Non-Financial Foreign Entity such as this? For individuals, I mean. The business is not required to report to the US government - but individual account holders may have to do so.
Good luck getting that information in a definitive form. I've tried, and so have the people at Global Gold, but there doesn't seem to be a definition of what counts and what doesn't.

I've filed the FATCA reports just to be on the safe side.
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Re: Safety Deposit Box Insurance

Post by boglerdude » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:45 am

"Anecdotally speaking, HSBC begged me to accept a measly $60K worth of silver in place of the gold that they were being paid to hold for me around 08' when I called some in during the last financial crisis- which while bad had not nearly the debt the system has in it today.
It was instructive for me. If a giant bank like HSBC had to bother with my petty call in during the last crisis how bad will it be the next time around?(if were not already there/close)"

via https://mises.org/wire/whats-price-gold-it-depends
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