Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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Kbg
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am

gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
No manipulation for personal/organizational gain going on here...I'm sure. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
gaddyslapper007
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am
gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
No manipulation for personal/organizational gain going on here...I'm sure. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
Its not manipulation….the bitcoin ledger is still what it always has been! (individuals did not lose in the BTC & BCash fork event....they got more "free" money (BCash).) Yes, the individuals who forked their own blockchain (Bcash) may have tried for personal gain.....but it did not affect BTC. Being a free market it comes with the territory....im ok / encourage that. Bcash "could" be an improvement to BTC (its not)....it wouldn't matter either way because if you held BTC at the time of the fork you received the equivalent in Bcash. That "manipulation" made every BTC holder more wealthy....the opposite is case with any other "manipulated" currency". (individuals get screwed ..government / market makers makes win)

I don't think you are being mean at all....its a called a discussion. But don't pat yourself on the back so quickly when you think you "know" about BTC. You've proven to me twice in this thread to not have deep understanding of it. <-- not intended as insult...but an observation.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:44 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am
gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:55 am
5. Agree...Per my above post. Government prints paper, government demands taxes be paid in said paper, threatens people to pay taxes or go to prison, <-- Voila! Paper now has value amongst the people! My point.....like it or not, BTC has been existence for 10 years and gets stronger more adopted by the day...."people" have a desire /want a money outside of government oversight, control and manipulation...it that's easy. Whether or not BTC ultimately delivers that is the questions.....time will tell. And straight up....I will move to another country if the US outlaws BTC. That would be pure infringement upon freedom of speech, property, etc.....(<--note, has nothing do with money...principles of no longer being a free(ish) country.)
No manipulation for personal/organizational gain going on here...I'm sure. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
FYI.....thanks for all thoughts and inputs throughout this chat forum! You are one of my top respected peeps I have on here to learn from....and you have shaped my mind /portfolio over the years. Please do not think I engage in this discussion for malicious purpose ...other than to getting inside your mind for your thoughts! thanks again for all your contributions!
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Kbg
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Wed May 15, 2019 11:46 am

Thank you for the kind words. I enjoy collegial debate & banter back and forth.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by boglerdude » Wed May 15, 2019 8:30 pm

> if the US outlaws BTC

The US gov is big business. Do Gates, Buffet, and Bezos want Bitcoin as the currency?
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Thu May 16, 2019 5:54 am

boglerdude wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:30 pm
> if the US outlaws BTC

The US gov is big business. Do Gates, Buffet, and Bezos want Bitcoin as the currency?
From my understanding......Gates originally liked the idea of BTC, then later shunned it......not sure of his stance now. Seems like recall reading something recently that Microsoft is building on the network....but could be wrong there.

Buffet calls it “rat poison”......so no! (He hates gold as well.)

Bezos - I honestly don’t know.....couldn’t find anything with google search.

I don’t think BTC is going to de-thrown the USD anytime soon. I do think we will see it overtake gold (market cap) within the next 10 years.

The fundamental fact of money!....it goes where it is treated best. (I.e. less taxation / government oversight).
What form of money that will be?.....I don’t know.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Thu May 16, 2019 9:08 am

Most of my reading on Bitcoin indicates there isn't a ton of interest in it for monetary purposes. Think about it...banks transfer gobs of money securely every day. Of course theft happens physically and electronically but we've all read about multiple bitcoin bank heists so personally I also don't see the advantage. However, there is a TON of interest in using the associated technology for things like unique verifiable tagging, electronic identities, and several more. The technology is here to stay, no doubt about that, whether it becomes a serious form of money I think the jury is still out.

Having knocked the monetary property side of things, it is also fact that Bitcoin futures are proving to be a resilient product and they are trading fairly robustly for a newish product.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by bitcoininthevp » Mon May 20, 2019 10:24 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:08 am
Most of my reading on Bitcoin indicates there isn't a ton of interest in it for monetary purposes. Think about it...banks transfer gobs of money securely every day. Of course theft happens physically and electronically but we've all read about multiple bitcoin bank heists so personally I also don't see the advantage. However, there is a TON of interest in using the associated technology for things like unique verifiable tagging, electronic identities, and several more. The technology is here to stay, no doubt about that, whether it becomes a serious form of money I think the jury is still out.

Having knocked the monetary property side of things, it is also fact that Bitcoin futures are proving to be a resilient product and they are trading fairly robustly for a newish product.
Bitcoin* is not focused on being a payment network. As you mention there are plenty of those. My Visa card works perfectly almost all the time.

Bitcoin* is focused on being the hardest money. With a (currently weak) payment network as part of its capabilities.

When I say hard money I mean resistance to changes in its supply curve (other than its known inflation/distribution-of-coins schedule).

> multiple bitcoin bank heists

Is the dollar weak if someone robs a bank? Or is that a weakness of the bank? "not your keys, not your coins"

> don't see the advantage

Bitcoin is a censorship resistant digital bearer instrument. Here are some related use cases for Bitcoin:

> a TON of interest in using the associated technology

Which of these use cases require censorship resistance? Would they perform better than centralized alternatives? What are the incentive mechanisms for securing such networks? Which do you use? Which have any traction? Im very skeptical here as you can tell. This stuff has been talked about for years and is getting no usage.

* Obviously Bitcoin is software and does not have intentions. But its software parameters, the developers, and community around it is what I am referencing here.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by bitcoininthevp » Mon May 20, 2019 10:29 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bitcoin_forks

I'm really, really not trying to be mean...but I'm going to keep on popping hallucinogenic bubbles. >:D
Linking to a list of Bitcoin Forks without any context and somehow implying it as "a burn" doesn’t add value to the conversation. Anyone remotely familiar with Bitcoin is aware of such forks. The question for you is, why are forks "bad"? How are Bitcoins technical or economical operations negatively impacted?
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Kbg
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Mon May 20, 2019 9:08 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:29 am
Linking to a list of Bitcoin Forks without any context and somehow implying it as "a burn" doesn’t add value to the conversation. Anyone remotely familiar with Bitcoin is aware of such forks. The question for you is, why are forks "bad"? How are Bitcoins technical or economical operations negatively impacted?
Pretty sure I didn't claim it was "bad." I said, like government issued money, Bitcoin is driven by people and is manipulated for various ends. I am not a Bitcoin expert, but I'm pretty sure I understand enough about the forking that is occurring to understand it isn't altruistically driven. (And you know that too.)

I assume you are Bitcoin expert, so of all the forks how many are instantly exchangeable between each of the other forks and into the foreign currency of one's choice?

However, I will repeat something I am highly confident in. For legal transactions, Bitcoin technology as a form of money is entirely beholden to government approval or as a minimum non-interference. True believers are deluded if they actually think that isn't the case. Of course let's say Bitcoin gets some large powerful constituent behind it and wants it to be widely recognized by government(s), this could happen. Alternatively the reverse could happen and it would happen something like this: Congress or Fed to Banks/Other Large Financial Institutions: Thou shalt not accept nor transact using Bitcoin if you want to continue doing business in the United States. And unlike Iranian oil which is a tangible thing, what's the point of even trying to buck such an edict?

In terms of financial instruments I am rarely pro or con anything. I just try to understand them and their behavior. The fact Bitcoin has futures on the CME says to me it is getting a measure of recognition. While maybe not outright endorsement, United States government acceptance at some level is implicit in their approval to trade.

Like physical gold, I throw down the Walmart and McDonald's test to Bitcoin. When you can successfully pass it, I will fully recognize Bitcoin as a legit, serious form of money. Until then, in my humble view, it is a minor sideshow composed of true believers, speculators and outright fraud.

(Note: I am not saying all Bitcoin variations are frauds, but there are many that are. I also understand/believe a competitive environment where creators hope their version will catch on is a major reason for multiple variants. This is not fraud, just entrepreneurship at its best and only "X" of them will survive over time.)

And for the readers of this thread...a "money" reality check

Hey this could be a legit form of money (2014) https://viewfinder.expedia.com/expedia- ... s-bitcoin/

Or maybe not...(2018) https://cointelegraph.com/news/confirme ... ent-option

I'm sure bitcoininthevp can probably google up an exact opposite example...however, my USD Visa has worked without a hitch the entire time.

Speaking of speculation...Bitcoin has been an outstanding speculative instrument if you can call it correctly. (Wish I could!)
Last edited by Kbg on Mon May 20, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by Kbg » Mon May 20, 2019 9:24 pm

I forgot to address any of your other issues, yes I did. I'll concede every one of them.

However, this is a thread about what is "good money" not what we wish was good money and the most important feature of any form of money is that it is widely accepted for just about every form of commercial or private transaction.

Gold no, Bitcoin no.
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Re: Time to Return to the Gold Standard?

Post by bitcoininthevp » Tue May 21, 2019 8:48 am

> Pretty sure I didn't claim it was "bad."
You implied negativity with your "fork+pop your bubble" comments. To claim otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.
> I understand enough about the forking that is occurring to understand it isn't altruistically driven.
They are probably 99% scams IMHO.
> so of all the forks how many are instantly exchangeable between each of the other forks and into the foreign currency of one's choice?
Im not sure the validity of that test. But Id say only a minority of forks are listed on exchanges. With very low volume. I personally dont use any. When a fork happens and I receive the "free" coins, I just sell them for BTC.
> For legal transactions, Bitcoin technology as a form of money is entirely beholden to government approval or as a minimum non-interference.
Which government?
> let's say Bitcoin gets some large powerful constituent behind it
This is in progress. Keep in mind, Bitcoin is new and growing. No one is claiming the Bitcoin ecosystem is complete. Fidelity is adopting. ICE is launching a Bitcoin company (w/ Microsoft and Starbucks)
> United States government acceptance at some level is implicit in their approval to trade
USG also has SOLD Bitcoins they seized from drug markets. If that isnt a nod of approval (so far), I dont know what is. They dont sell cocaine from drug busts.
> I am not saying all Bitcoin variations are frauds, but there are many that are.
Probably all variants are. But if something somehow shows as a better future sound money candidate than Bitcoin, Id jump there.
> Until then, in my humble view, it is a minor sideshow composed of true believers, speculators and outright fraud.
I agree with this 100%.
> my USD Visa has worked without a hitch the entire time.
I said as much in my previous comment. But you seem to be focused on Bitcoin exclusively as a payment rail. There are plenty of payment rails out there (credit cards, paypal, apple pay, bank transfers, cash app and the like, etc). In fact, I think it is ridiculous to spend Bitcoin unless there is some discount or other reason to do so. If you believe it will be money in the future, its worth, per coin, in order to have liquidity to support any small % of the economy will have to go up something like ~100x.

Bitcoin wasn’t created to compete with any of these payment mechanism. Bitcoin is out to compete with other *monies* and central banks.

There will probably be layer 2 technologies on TOP of Bitcoin, using bitcoin's "money-ness" for fast *payments*. Look into Lightning Network. But that stuff is still being proven out.

I think you should consider a perspective of "Is this Bitcoin thing on track to be a future money?" instead of "Its not perfect and used everywhere today".

I think its really hard to argue Bitcoin isnt moving in the direction of money. See here for one idea of path to Bitcoin becoming money: https://medium.com/@vijayboyapati/the-b ... ecc8bdecc1

Sure its volatile and not widely spread. But that is part of what you would expect to see with a new non sovereign asset working towards being money. Sure doesn’t mean its inevitable. "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. " and all that. I get it.

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