PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

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boglerdude
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by boglerdude » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:14 pm

eg Amazon can take cash a build a warehouse that will deliver 10% return. No reason to return that cash to you if you cant put it to work for more than 10%. Maybe they'll be able to pull that 10% for another 100 years. No reason to overweight dividend payers.
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by Xan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:24 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:14 pm
eg Amazon can take cash a build a warehouse that will deliver 10% return. No reason to return that cash to you if you cant put it to work for more than 10%. Maybe they'll be able to pull that 10% for another 100 years. No reason to overweight dividend payers.
I'm not endorsing overweighting dividend payers. Just pointing out that dividends are the only mechanism for stocks to deliver value to shareholders as a whole. In your Amazon example, the reason to invest in warehouses rather than pay out a dividend is in order to be able to pay out a bigger dividend later.
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by boglerdude » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:33 pm

Buybacks
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by mathjak107 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:43 am

Xan wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:24 pm
boglerdude wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:14 pm
eg Amazon can take cash a build a warehouse that will deliver 10% return. No reason to return that cash to you if you cant put it to work for more than 10%. Maybe they'll be able to pull that 10% for another 100 years. No reason to overweight dividend payers.
I'm not endorsing overweighting dividend payers. Just pointing out that dividends are the only mechanism for stocks to deliver value to shareholders as a whole. In your Amazon example, the reason to invest in warehouses rather than pay out a dividend is in order to be able to pay out a bigger dividend later.
stock buy backs , acquisitions , mergers , new products , gaining market share , increasing margins or losing competitors ARE THE ONLY WAY ALL STOCKS CAN APPRECIATE .


PAYING OUT A DIVIDEND WITHOUT APPRECIATION FROM THE ABOVE , the same as any stock , dividend or not there IS NO ROI -ZERO -NADA . NOTHING.

total return IS TOTAL RETURN. you may as well have stuffed it in a mattress because zero appreciation is zero return regardless what they give you back in your own money .

without appreciation in share price from the above you give them 100k and they hand your money back to you with zero return with each payout



total return is total return no matter how it is arrived at . it can be all appreciation , all dividend or a combination of the above ...that dollar spends exactly the same if you create a cash flow from that appreciation or they do it for you ..
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:03 am

Why do you keep saying that, mathjak? Nobody is disagreeing with that. I'm saying that the ultimate raison d'etre of stocks is a dividend. This shouldn't be particularly controversial: after all that's the mechanism for a company to distribute earnings to shareholders, which is the whole point.
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by mathjak107 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:22 am

and i am saying that is untrue , false and poor logic ... appreciation and cash flow from an investment has nothing to do with a dividend or not .. that is ridiculous assumption in my opinion . i can take a draw from anyone of my investments at anytime and take an equivalent draw as compared to any dividend . i don't need them to give it to me , i can take it myself when i want right from appreciation like they do .

i can sell my gold anytime too and assuming it is up i can create a dividend of my own off it if i want to tap that appreciation .

so you are trying to tell us if my gold appreciates 4% and i take a 4% draw off it , that except for maybe taxes it is different than a 4% dividend . that would be illogical . balances and total return as well as cash flow are the same as your dividend payer . .
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:32 am

No. You're still looking micro while I'm talking macro. Did you even look at my long post with lots of tables and numbers that I spent a lot of time on? Investors as a whole only get paid when there's a dividend.
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by mathjak107 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:41 am

it is mathematically impossible to be any different ..... i am not wasting time proving out those numbers ...

maybe someone else here can convince you you are logically and mathematically off base here but i am done ........
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:45 am

mathjak107 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:41 am
it is mathematically impossible to be any different ..... i am not wasting time proving out those numbers ...

maybe someone else here can convince you you are logically and mathematically off base here but i am done ........
I invested a lot of time trying to prove what I'm saying and succeeded. And you won't even look at it because you're so sure you're right.

I suspect the reason you keep saying the same thing over and over is you haven't been bothering to actually read what I've been saying all this time.
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by mathjak107 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:50 am

Sorry but your whole premise is just silly no matter what kind of numbers you are trying to come up with .....stocks go up dividends or not for all the reasons above and the same as you have a choice to reinvest the dividends or not in to the same company , everyone has the same choice to draw off some appreciation or leave it dividend or not .

Total return is total return and a draw is draw .....anything else is just a lot of hooey trying to say one method is better than the other mathematically.. I have no way of knowing how you accounted for all the price set backs , because if it worked out differently using same returns your numbers are skewed because it is impossible to come out any different when you compare apples to apples.

If the total returns are the same and your payouts are the same results are always identical or else your numbers are skewed and missing something.. those numbers make my hair hurt trying to decipher them ....but in any case if any part comes up differently there is a factor skewed somewhere
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:15 am

Getting a return by selling requires a buyer. Agreed? That means that investors are passing around money and shares, but the sum total of all investors have not achieved more dollars until a dividend is paid. (Boglerdude might be right about buybacks, but I think that's a sneaky dividend.)

How is it possible for dollars to be created by exchanging shares with other investors?

You are not arguing in good faith if you are assuming your initial presumptions are correct, and then choosing to ignore anything that disagrees with them.
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Re: PP vs Dividend Growth Investing

Post by mathjak107 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:59 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:15 am
Getting a return by selling requires a buyer. Agreed? That means that investors are passing around money and shares, but the sum total of all investors have not achieved more dollars until a dividend is paid. (Boglerdude might be right about buybacks, but I think that's a sneaky dividend.)

How is it possible for dollars to be created by exchanging shares with other investors?

You are not arguing in good faith if you are assuming your initial presumptions are correct, and then choosing to ignore anything that disagrees with them.
Ask yourself why gold generates profits as it gets passed around.. perceived value ,, movements in the dollar , fear ,greed , etc why does Berkshire trade and generate profits for investors or any of the 78 stocks in the s&p that pay no dividends and increase their shareholders value as they get passed around ....

Because the companies are worth more from increased profits , acquisitions,stock buy backs ,taking market share , new products ,etc...not one reason pertains to paying a dividend now or ever...anyone who wants can sell or generate a cash flow off those gains .

In fact all our real estate was bought. For appreciation, not cash flow ...we bought 9 co-ops with break even cash flow and stabilized tenants so they would never generate cash flow ....well they are now all sold for multiple 7 figure profits ..yet never generated any income .... the reason is profits always come from appreciation ,income or a combination.
The last 2 in sept that were sold were sold to an investor group with no positive cash flow , it is just break even ..they want it for appreciation.

But real estate is a poor comparison because with every rent check , the amount is not subtracted off the value of the asset like a stock
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