A Simple Parable about Israel

[stuper1]

Picture this: the year is 1900, and we are in a large city on the east coast of America. The city has many gangs that fight each other brutally for various reasons. For over 150 years, Gang Alan has controlled a neighborhood of about 10 blocks by 10 blocks, so 100 square blocks, in the center of the city. Their worst enemy, Gang Jim, is a smaller group that has been their sworn, mortal, implacable foe for hundreds of years due to deep, unbridgeable differences in race and ideology.

One day the mayor calls the leader of Gang Alan and tells him the city has a problem because Gang Jim does not have its own defined area of the city to live in and control, which is creating many issues. He says the city council, which contains several members sympathetic to Gang Jim and few sympathetic to Gang Alan, has considered a few different areas in which to put Gang Jim, but Gang Jim has expressed a decided preference for a particular 3 block by 3 block, lightly populated portion of Gang Alan’s neighborhood, for which they feel a special affinity because they lived in that exact area for 200 years when they first moved to this country and much of their group identity is tied to the area. The city council has decided to approve this request by Gang Jim. The leader of Gang Alan says that Gang Alan will not move its people out of the 9 square block area and will oppose the plan in every way possible. The mayor says the city council’s decision is final, and Gang Jim will start moving in next week.

Imagine how this scenario will play out over the ensuing hundreds of years, especially as the technology for killing increases exponentially.

Most people probably have solved the meaning already, but just to be clear Gang Alan represents not just the Palestinian people but all the Arab countries (plus Turkey and Iran), and Gang Jim represents the Jewish people. The city government represents the strongest world nations, which in 1900 included Britain, Germany, France, Russia, and the USA. Many important details and nuances are missing from this parable, but it presents a simple, relatively unbiased model from which to start understanding the situation in Israel.

(I would welcome input on the above scribblings. My intent was to be as unbiased as possible without leaving out any major points. I am no expert on Israel or much of anything else. Please tell me where my blindspots are in the above parable or how it could be improved. Thanks.)

[boglerdude]

Theres also the distraction element. Americans should first be discussing term limits, our own border, and the constitutional violations during the "pandemic"

https://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/t ... d-is-mine/

[Mountaineer]

Picture this: the year is 1900, and we are in a large city on the east coast of America. The city has many gangs that fight each other brutally for various reasons. For over 150 years, Gang Alan has controlled a neighborhood of about 10 blocks by 10 blocks, so 100 square blocks, in the center of the city. Their worst enemy, Gang Jim, is a smaller group that has been their sworn, mortal, implacable foe for hundreds of years due to deep, unbridgeable differences in race and ideology.

One day the mayor calls the leader of Gang Alan and tells him the city has a problem because Gang Jim does not have its own defined area of the city to live in and control, which is creating many issues. He says the city council, which contains several members sympathetic to Gang Jim and few sympathetic to Gang Alan, has considered a few different areas in which to put Gang Jim, but Gang Jim has expressed a decided preference for a particular 3 block by 3 block, lightly populated portion of Gang Alan’s neighborhood, for which they feel a special affinity because they lived in that exact area for 200 years when they first moved to this country and much of their group identity is tied to the area. The city council has decided to approve this request by Gang Jim. The leader of Gang Alan says that Gang Alan will not move its people out of the 9 square block area and will oppose the plan in every way possible. The mayor says the city council’s decision is final, and Gang Jim will start moving in next week.

Imagine how this scenario will play out over the ensuing hundreds of years, especially as the technology for killing increases exponentially.

Most people probably have solved the meaning already, but just to be clear Gang Alan represents not just the Palestinian people but all the Arab countries (plus Turkey and Iran), and Gang Jim represents the Jewish people. The city government represents the strongest world nations, which in 1900 included Britain, Germany, France, Russia, and the USA. Many important details and nuances are missing from this parable, but it presents a simple, relatively unbiased model from which to start understanding the situation in Israel.

(I would welcome input on the above scribblings. My intent was to be as unbiased as possible without leaving out any major points. I am no expert on Israel or much of anything else. Please tell me where my blindspots are in the above parable or how it could be improved. Thanks.)

You might enjoy this. The host is a historian who gives a good description of the issues that led up to the current mess in the Middle East. It's about a half hour long and in my opinion well worth the time to listen. I learned a lot that I did not previously know.

https://www.1517.org/podcast-overview/2023-10-14

[stuper1]

Mountaineer,

Thanks, I will listen to the podcast. Do you think, based on what you heard, the historian host would have any revisions (small or large) to suggest for my little parable?

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

Thanks, I will listen to the podcast. Do you think, based on what you heard, the historian host would have any revisions (small or large) to suggest for my little parable?

He might question the ‘foe for hundreds of years’ in this part: “ Their worst enemy, Gang Jim, is a smaller group that has been their sworn, mortal, implacable foe for hundreds of years due to deep, unbridgeable differences in race and ideology.” I think he said the Jews and Arabs lived peacefully together for quite a while prior to WW1 or thereabouts. See what you think after you hear the podcast.

[stuper1]

Mountaineer,

Thanks, I will listen to the podcast. Do you think, based on what you heard, the historian host would have any revisions (small or large) to suggest for my little parable?

He might question the ‘foe for hundreds of years’ in this part: “ Their worst enemy, Gang Jim, is a smaller group that has been their sworn, mortal, implacable foe for hundreds of years due to deep, unbridgeable differences in race and ideology.” I think he said the Jews and Arabs lived peacefully together for quite a while prior to WW1 or thereabouts. See what you think after you hear the podcast.

Hmm, interesting. I was thinking longer term, bigger picture going back to Isaac and Ishmael. I will have to listen to him. Thanks.

[seajay]

Judaism pre dates Islam - that dispersed the Jews all around the world, with a sizeable number in Germany - who during WW2 persecuted them and post WW2 America offered them the return of their former sacred lands. Many fled the German persecution during the war years to their sacred land such that the Jewish population numbers swelled to a sizeable proportion of the total population.

Up to a couple of weeks ago and Israel was nearing a peace agreement with Arabia. Many within Islam however interpret its belief to be that any non Islamic should be wiped off the face of the earth, that through out-breeding or conquest it should ultimately dominate. So aided by Iran that potential peace agreement was brought to a timely end (here's 10,000 missiles to fire into Israel and go on a 1500+ terrorist venture into Israel killing/hurting as many of the infidels that you can in a as horrible manner as possible - bound some together and burnt them alive, beheaded babies etc.).

25% of the world has already converted to Islam and their out-breeding and other policies are inclined to see that rise to a dictate relatively quickly. For non-Islamics that might prefer their granddaughters to be relatively free but who casually accept the transition towards a world that dictates that they should not be employed, keep themselves covered ...etc. ... well evil prevails when good people do nothing.

The figures of 4500+ killed in Gaza through Israeli bombing is fewer than one killed per four bombs dropped. Is targeted bombing at Hamas, formerly 30,000 strong - reduced by around 6000 when you count those killed that went on the killing spree rampage within Israel. IMO aid, the lorries at the border - that remains closed because other Arab nations don't want them, Islam would prefer them to be disbursed around the world, to countries accepting them as refugees, importation of extremist that later might activate in the name of Allah. IMO aid shouldn't be provided until after the 200 civilian hostages have been returned, as otherwise they wont be released as they prefer to use those women/children/babies as shields.

[Kbg]

History is interesting, but it only defines the future if one lets it. It's also a poor excuse for justifying responses to real current problems.

We fought two world wars with Germany and one with Japan. They are now our friends. We fought on the same side as Russia did in both of them and now we are enemies. We had a mixed relationship with China pre-WW2 and literally kept them in WW2 to fight the Japanese due to our support and now they are our greatest threat. (So says the pundits) The United States had a 4 year civil war and we've added a bunch of new states since then. (And that's just a short history of the United States...we could duplicate something similar for many countries.)

One could dig up endless and justified "reasons" on both sides where damage/harm has been done to the other. Those are the facts on the ground. If one is familiar with academic terrorism literature Israel is widely credited with being the initiator of "modern terrorism" tactics during the 1940s and Hamas is a more recent extension of that.

Personally, I tend to be somewhat more sympathetic to the Israeli side as I think over the years they have been much more practical in trying to solve the problem whereas the Palestinians have been "blessed" with not particularly good leaders. And, where someone would meet them half way (Egypt, Abraham accords), peace deals have been made.

Lex Fridman has some really excellent podcasts on this topic that by total coincidence occurred not too long before the current breakout of hostilities.

Jared Kushner Oct 11
Mohammed El-Kurd July 24
Benjamin Netanyahu Jul 12

Some good takes on the various views. Listening to all of them is a serious time commitment, but if you do listen carefully to what the "here and now" issues are. It would be cool if he could get someone representing the US Democratic Party's approach/thoughts on the problem

[dualstow]

Excellent post by Seajay, as always.

Well, amidst all the gore and all the usual accusations on social media, I found something good. It’s not brief, and it’s really for those who feel they’ve already heard (read) it all. For something more basic, I still like the Coleman Hughes podcast with guest Andrew Gold.

https://x.com/HusseinAboubak/status/171 ... 13882?s=20

[vnatale]

Excellent post by Seajay, as always.

Well, amidst all the gore and all the usual accusations on social media, I found something good. It’s not brief, and it’s really for those who feel they’ve already heard (read) it all. For something more basic, I still like the Coleman Hughes podcast with guest Andrew Gold.

https://x.com/HusseinAboubak/status/171 ... 13882?s=20

Yes, many thanks for that.

I put it on last night as I was drifting off to sleep. Did not hear much of it. But then put it back on this morning while I was lying in bed after having been woken up much too early. Heard parts of it. All I heard was uniformly excellent. It will now get the Vinny listen to twice treatment in an attempt to absorb as much as possible from it. Should be able to do so this afternoon while doing some closeout work in my vegetable garden.

[dualstow]

Glad you liked it.
What’s closeout work? Is that like deadheading plants before winter comes?

[vnatale]

Glad you liked it.
What’s closeout work? Is that like deadheading plants before winter comes?

Things like pulling the tomato cages out of the ground. And, then pulling the tomato plants out of the ground.

Taking out everything, e.g., peppers, that could be killed by a frost (we almost had one Monday night).

[dualstow]

There's a Palestinian guest coming to the free version of the Coleman Hughes podcast. I think it's already out for subscribers.
Coleman Hughes wrote:

So I've gotten criticism lately that I've created an echo chamber of pro-Israel guests, Benny Morris and Andrew Gold being the two examples. So I went on Twitter and asked who I should get to deliver the Palestinian perspective. and many people suggested my guest today, who is Yousef Munayyer. Yousef is a Palestinian-American writer and political analyst based in Washington, D.C. He was the executive director of the US campaign for Palestinian rights, and previously he directed the Jerusalem Fund for Education and Community Development.

I'll post a link when I see one.

Nov 1 edit: https://youtu.be/VjD1T9naV2Y?si=8-EhJ7gIhAzxk-gr