Is Germany Getting Ready for Another Demagogue?

[stuper1]

Interesting article: https://www.other-news.info/the-wests-r ... t-germany/

Suspicion of who destroyed Nordstream seems divided on either the US or Ukraine (with the US's help, no doubt). Either way, can you imagine the outrage in your home country if critical infrastructure was destroyed, leading to much higher residential and industrial energy prices, leaving some people freezing during a cold winter and other people out of work due to a failing economy? Don't be surprised if the next Hitler arises in the next few years, and this time a literal literal Hitler not just the figment of the social justice warriors' imaginations. All brought to you as a downstream effect of the militaristic US hegemon who insisted that their NATO military alliance had to be extended right up to the border of another major world power. It's diplomatic insanity.

[boglerdude]

We have 35k troops there. lil more concerned about threats from within...

Anyone been following illegal immigration rates over the last 20 years? dunno what sources can be trusted. LA is handing out more cash for folks to pay back rent. Dont even need to be a citizen...

"Foreign-born workers’ share of the labor force—reached 18% in 2022, the highest level going back to 1996"
https://www.edgeandodds.com/the-daily-e ... mber-2023/

[dualstow]

stuper, if you have a short list of anything that isn’t US/NATO’s fault, I’d love to see it

[stuper1]

Here's a short list of civilian deaths due to house fires, slipping in the shower, etc. (I'm sure none could be related to incendiary steel cylinders falling from US/NATO planes shortly before):

500,000 Germans, 1941 to 1945
1,000,000 Japanese, 1941 to 1945
2,000,000 Vietnamese, 1955 to 1975
500,000 Iraqis, 2003 to 2013

When did it become okay for civilians to be wantonly slaughtered? Nobody ever talks about this. All we ever see are stupid, formulaic, propaganda WW2 movies about brave Americans rescuing their comrades behind enemy lines.

[stuper1]

You know what is the height of hypocrisy is the USA lecturing Putin about being a murderous thug for invading Ukraine. This is the USA that invaded Iraq supposedly because they had WMDs, which turned out surprise surprise to be false, and killing 500,000 Iraqis in the process. So, it's okay for us to invade on false pretenses a country that is literally 10,000 miles away from us. But it's not okay for Putin to invade the country that's right next to his when there's no question that WMDs (nuclear-tipped missiles) will be installed if he doesn't push back? And check the civilian death count in Ukraine. It's nothing like the 500,000 that we killed in Iraq. The supposedly murderous Putin has actually been quite restrained in not hurting civilians (probably because he considers them to be his cousins, which in fact they are).

You think people in Indonesia, India, Nigeria, and Argentina can't see this hypocrisy? The propaganda might work here in the USA, but in the rest of the world, which represents the majority of the world's population, I'm pretty sure the American government is held in the greatest contempt.

[dualstow]

When did it become okay for civilians to be wantonly slaughtered?

When have they ever not been slaughtered? When has that not been part of war? Sadly,it often is.

Nobody ever talks about this.

I guess you must have been an eyewitness then.

Sure, you won’t see it in a Michael Bay film, but it is discussed in history books. At least, that’s how I know about it.

I agree with you about the resentment that that the U.S. has earned. We’re kind of like American Express, but with an army. Getting what we want and creating ill will along with the good. Turns out the world is complicated and there is no perfect, moral nation.

In your view, are the Germans, British, Australians etc. siding with the U.S. because they are afraid of us, because they are equally evil/ our NATO partners in crime, or some other reason? If Russia didn’t have oil or gas would they still have any friends in the West?

Side note: I’ve been reading about the history of Korea and the formation of North Korea, and it’s fascinating how the Soviets and Chinese thought about things. Again, not black and white with good guys and baddies. It’s complex.

[stuper1]

I'm not really concerned with why other countries are following the US. I am a US citizen. I have no control over what other countries do. The only country I have any influence in is the US, and I would like the US to stop trying to be the hegemon and start to realize that the world would be a better place as a multipolar world and not a unipolar world. The world is in fact a multipolar world, but a lot of US political leaders and business leaders (meaning defense industries mainly) refuse to accept this.

I assume other countries follow the US due to reasons of money and power. Isn't that why any country does anything? To think any country does anything for moral reasons, if those moral reasons conflict with money and power, is naive.

[dualstow]

Before power there is survival and defense, and yes, sometimes paranoia is built into that. But I agree, essentially, in that money and power are a strong pull. Still, there are powerful nations on both sides with which a smaller nation of lesser power could align. There are choices, and ideology does play a part. (Interesting that we are moving into an age of “Non-Alignment”).

and I would like the US to stop trying to be the hegemon

What can you do, other than vote your conscience? Are you an activist?

[stuper1]

The first thing I can do is stop believing the lies fed to us by the media. Instead of being called the military-industrial complex, it should be called the military-industrial-media complex. After stopping believing the lies, further action becomes possible.

Every time they tell us something, stop and think, is this really true? What evidence backs up this view?

Here's a good one: Taiwan. That's obviously next on the list. Xi Jinping is obviously a murderous madman who wouldn't think twice about murdering millions of people to bring Taiwan into his grasp. How do I know this? The New York Times told me, so it must be true.

I feel bad for Taiwan, because they are obviously between a rock and a hard place. I counsel them to be very careful in what they do. China is a lot closer to them geographically than the US is. It won't take many wrong moves before they look a lot like what Ukraine looks like right now, with hundreds of thousands dead and the country in ruins. If it comes to that, can the US really stop China if it wants to go in? Maybe it's better to cut a deal with China, knowing that you're giving up some freedom, rather than taking the risk of millions dying. It really is a hard issue. I like my freedom as much as anybody. On the other hand, you have to live in the real world. Again, it won't be the rich leaders who suffer. They'll be gone from the island to greener pastures long before China takes control. It's always the poor who will suffer either way, but maybe it's better to be alive and less free than dead and free.

[Xan]

I feel bad for Taiwan, because they are obviously between a rock and a hard place. I counsel them to be very careful in what they do. China is a lot closer to them geographically than the US is. It won't take many wrong moves before they look a lot like what Ukraine looks like right now, with hundreds of thousands dead and the country in ruins. If it comes to that, can the US really stop China if it wants to go in? Maybe it's better to cut a deal with China, knowing that you're giving up some freedom, rather than taking the risk of millions dying. It really is a hard issue. I like my freedom as much as anybody. On the other hand, you have to live in the real world. Again, it won't be the rich leaders who suffer. They'll be gone from the island to greener pastures long before China takes control. It's always the poor who will suffer either way, but maybe it's better to be alive and less free than dead and free.

Thomas Jefferson "On the Necessity of Taking Up Arms," 1775, magnificent (emphasis mine):

With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly, before God and the world, declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers, which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverence, employ for the preservation of our liberties; being with one mind resolved to die freemen rather than to live slaves.

As we've seen with Hong Kong, when China takes over they take over. There's no "deal" to be made: you either are willing to fight or you go be a peon under the communists' thumb. You're also asking them to surrender the civil war their ancestors fought and died in not long ago.

[stuper1]

No, I'm not asking them to do that. I'm asking them to carefully consider what they want to do. It's fine for Jefferson to decide that he would rather die as a freeman than live as a slave. Those are beautiful words, but let's not kid ourselves, they really are just words. It's not fine for Jefferson (or Zelensky, or whoever the leader of Taiwan is) to decide that some poor schlub who really couldn't care less who the leader is has to go die at the front lines while Zelensky knows that whenever he wants he can jet off to his estate in the Bahamas that he bought by skimming off from the billions in aid that the US sent him.

Ideally, Taiwan would have a true unbiased national referendum, as if such a thing were possible, but one can dream, where the question would be asked: would you rather die as freemen or live as peons under the CCP?

As I'm sure you know, what usually happens is some rich guy in an ivory tower makes the decision and then the peons get to suffer the consequences even though they may have made an opposite decision if they were given the chance and really understood the stakes.

[stuper1]

And by the way, who won that civil war you mentioned?

[Xan]

And by the way, who won that civil war you mentioned?

Mostly the Communists, but not entirely. Yet.

[seajay]

Here's a short list of civilian deaths due to house fires, slipping in the shower, etc. (I'm sure none could be related to incendiary steel cylinders falling from US/NATO planes shortly before):

500,000 Germans, 1941 to 1945
1,000,000 Japanese, 1941 to 1945
2,000,000 Vietnamese, 1955 to 1975
500,000 Iraqis, 2003 to 2013

When did it become okay for civilians to be wantonly slaughtered? Nobody ever talks about this. All we ever see are stupid, formulaic, propaganda WW2 movies about brave Americans rescuing their comrades behind enemy lines.

1932-1933 3.9 million https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

[stuper1]

And by the way, who won that civil war you mentioned?

Mostly the Communists, but not entirely. Yet.

And what exactly is the US's interest in Taiwan anyway? Are we just helping them out of the goodness of our heart, because we hate to see democracy fail anywhere in the world? I don't believe that for a second. We've supported so many dictators over the years that I find it hard to believe that we have any goodness in our heart to begin with.

For Pete's sake, Taiwan is a few miles away from the Chinese mainland. What would be so bad if we were just to butt out of the situation and let them figure out their own civil wars? Is it our job to sort out the political issues in every country of the world?

You and I both know what the US's interest is over there. The US just wants an unsinkable aircraft carrier off the coast of China for as long as it can have it to help keep the situation unstable and help keep China from becoming more powerful. That's the long and the short of it right there. And if several million Taiwanese (read ethnic Chinese people living in Taiwan) need to die along the way before China gets what it's very likely to get one way or another anyway, the US doesn't really care about that.

[dualstow]

Yeah, Taiwan is a tricky one, stuper. Especially for me, because I have friends and relatives there. It’s hard for me to be unbiased and to think abstractly about it because I lived there. For years.

From what i’ve read, if China bides its time, the U.S. may come to point where they are no longer willing to risk defending Taiwan.
I can only hope that China’s economy falls apart first, but even in that unlikely scenario, they will always have a massive military budget. It’s lot looking good for Taiwan.

And, as Xan alluded to the Hong Kong handover, we can see that China also renegs on its promises. “One country, two systems” was supposed to last until, what, 2050? I think it was just the early 2000s when Hong Kong talk show hosts started vanishing for saying the wrong thing.

[stuper1]

It probably doesn't sound like it, but I do feel sorry for anyone in Taiwan. I should say almost anyone. I don't feel sorry for any Zelensky-type leaders in Taiwan who might lead them down the garden path to very likely destruction, all the while knowing that those leaders and their families can board an airliner at any time and jet off to safety with plenty of gold stored somewhere, leaving the less fortunate people behind to bear the consequences.

Just remember what Kissinger said: to be America's enemy is dangerous, but to be our friend is fatal.

America's government will have no trouble supporting Taiwan to the last Taiwanese person, but it's not because it loves Taiwanese people, it's only because it wants to use them as a thorn in the side of the CCP.

By the way, of course as a people we do love Taiwanese people as we love almost anyone (not Russians though or mainland Chinese, both of which are unredeemable ethnicities). I have a good Taiwanese friend, although I have resolved not to discuss politics with him anymore, because it goes nowhere and causes trouble between us as we are far apart on many issues, but fortunately we have many other things to discuss.

[Xan]

I can't think of much that would be more patronizing and paternalistic than refusing to help the people of Ukraine or Taiwan or whatever on the basis that we're saving their lives by not helping them. Shouldn't that be up to them?

The US military despite its many flaws is a huge net force for good in the world. If we just left everywhere then many people would be much worse off.

[Xan]

By the way, of course as a people we do love Taiwanese people as we love almost anyone (not Russians though or mainland Chinese, both of which are unredeemable ethnicities).

Taiwanese isn't an ethnicity. The mainland and Taiwan are the same people, ethnically. I thought the same was basically true about Russians and Ukranians.

Doesn't the CCP need more thorns in its side?

[stuper1]

Not true. Taiwanese are good. Mainland Chinese are bad. I read it in the New York Times, so it has to be true. If you disagree with me, you need to go to a reeducation camp.

And to your earlier point, so you are saying that the Ukrainians and the Taiwanese get to decide for America how we spend our defense budget? Or you are saying that you believe that America decides how to spend its defense budget based on idealistic and moral grounds and not on what is in our best interest. There are so many counterexamples of things we've done that have been truly immoral because they advance our self interest, but now you want me to believe that we are helping Ukraine mainly because it's just the right thing to do? I'll tell you what the right thing to do would have been is not to use them as a pawn pushing against Russia for the last 15 years and pushing them into a corner between a rock and a hard place where now they are getting pulverized.

[stuper1]

By the way, of course as a people we do love Taiwanese people as we love almost anyone (not Russians though or mainland Chinese, both of which are unredeemable ethnicities).

Taiwanese isn't an ethnicity. The mainland and Taiwan are the same people, ethnically. I thought the same was basically true about Russians and Ukranians.

Doesn't the CCP need more thorns in its side?

So there we have it. The mask comes off. The US doesn't care about how many Taiwanese die in the upcoming conflict. All the US cares about is keeping a thorn in the side of the CCP. Very telling.

[Xan]

Not true. Taiwanese are good. Mainland Chinese are bad. I read it in the New York Times, so it has to be true. If you disagree with me, you need to go to a reeducation camp.

And to your earlier point, so you are saying that the Ukrainians and the Taiwanese get to decide for America how we spend our defense budget? Or you are saying that you believe that America decides how to spend its defense budget based on idealistic and moral grounds and not on what is in our best interest. There are so many counterexamples of things we've done that have been truly immoral because they advance our self interest, but now you want me to believe that we are helping Ukraine mainly because it's just the right thing to do? I'll tell you what the right thing to do would have been is not to use them as a pawn pushing against Russia for the last 15 years and pushing them into a corner between a rock and a hard place where now they are getting pulverized.

I agree with the NYT on that one, but it isn't because of ethnicity: those aren't different ethnicities.

We're in the happy circumstance on Ukraine and Taiwan of the right thing to do being also in our own interest. You seem to have excluded that possibility entirely.

[Xan]

By the way, of course as a people we do love Taiwanese people as we love almost anyone (not Russians though or mainland Chinese, both of which are unredeemable ethnicities).

Taiwanese isn't an ethnicity. The mainland and Taiwan are the same people, ethnically. I thought the same was basically true about Russians and Ukranians.

Doesn't the CCP need more thorns in its side?

So there we have it. The mask comes off. The US doesn't care about how many Taiwanese die in the upcoming conflict. All the US cares about is keeping a thorn in the side of the CCP. Very telling.

You seem to have confused me with "the US", but yes, the CCP is evil and if we can thwart them in any way that's a good thing.

[dualstow]

That’s a lot of sarcasm to cut through. You’re very prolific today, stuper. Did someone discover 5-hour energy?

I think this came up before, but no one said anything against the Russian people. Nobody mistakes the Russian populace with Putin. Your first clue is that he kills them, even when they’re living abroad.
It should go without saying, but there it’s been said again.

It’s possible for the U.S. to do something that is in its geopolitical interests which also works out for the local population. Exhibit A — dare I say it — South Korea.

The US military despite its many flaws is a huge net force for good in the world. If we just left everywhere then many people would be much worse off.

Some people won’t get it until the sun sets on the U.S. and China is the preeminent superpower.

[stuper1]

Not true. Taiwanese are good. Mainland Chinese are bad. I read it in the New York Times, so it has to be true. If you disagree with me, you need to go to a reeducation camp.

And to your earlier point, so you are saying that the Ukrainians and the Taiwanese get to decide for America how we spend our defense budget? Or you are saying that you believe that America decides how to spend its defense budget based on idealistic and moral grounds and not on what is in our best interest. There are so many counterexamples of things we've done that have been truly immoral because they advance our self interest, but now you want me to believe that we are helping Ukraine mainly because it's just the right thing to do? I'll tell you what the right thing to do would have been is not to use them as a pawn pushing against Russia for the last 15 years and pushing them into a corner between a rock and a hard place where now they are getting pulverized.

I agree with the NYT on that one, but it isn't because of ethnicity: those aren't different ethnicities.

We're in the happy circumstance on Ukraine and Taiwan of the right thing to do being also in our own interest. You seem to have excluded that possibility entirely.

And you seem to have missed my point that we shouldn't have been using Ukraine as a pawn for the last 15 years. We should be doing actual diplomacy, rather than just trying to shove "democracy" down peoples' throats. Some of you guys are unbelievable. We have hundreds of thousands of people dead in Ukraine, who would be alive right now if the US could just live with having its missiles 500 miles farther from Moscow, but you keep wanting to make excuses for the US government. That's fine. It's a free country. Apologize for whatever you want to apologize for.