TikTok ban thoughts?

glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by glennds » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:31 am

What do people here think about the proposed ban on TikTok?

Whether you are a user or not, I think it's an interesting question. Trump's administration tried and ultimately failed to get it past the court system. Biden's administration withdrew Trump's EO and instead has tried to mount a bipartisan effort to kill it at the congressional level. Based on the hearing last week (which was a farce in many ways), the last time bipartisan support was this unified was against Jeffrey Epstein.

Now for the really interesting part; if you read the RESTRICT Act bill S.686, it confers tremendous powers onto the Department of Commerce.
For example, accessing a banned platform using a VPN will in itself be a criminal act. The Secretary of Commerce will have broad discretion to deem a technology product or service as an "unacceptable risk". Same with the designation of a "foreign adversary".

Of course, there's a good for the goose argument that China thinks nothing of banning American technology companies like Google so why shouldn't we do the same?

And then there is the theory that big tech lobbying is behind all of this, especially Zuckerberg, because TikTok has been eating their lunch with its meteoric growth. In fact, one resolution is TikTok selling itself to an American tech company, which might be the end game here.

TT proposed a deal with Oracle to store all its US data in Texas and wall it off from the rest of its company and (theoretically) the government of China too. That proposal has not gone over with Biden or the members of Congress that participated in the hearing.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/s686/text

Any thoughts?
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:22 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:31 am

What do people here think about the proposed ban on TikTok?

Whether you are a user or not, I think it's an interesting question. Trump's administration tried and ultimately failed to get it past the court system. Biden's administration withdrew Trump's EO and instead has tried to mount a bipartisan effort to kill it at the congressional level. Based on the hearing last week (which was a farce in many ways), the last time bipartisan support was this unified was against Jeffrey Epstein.

Now for the really interesting part; if you read the RESTRICT Act bill S.686, it confers tremendous powers onto the Department of Commerce.
For example, accessing a banned platform using a VPN will in itself be a criminal act. The Secretary of Commerce will have broad discretion to deem a technology product or service as an "unacceptable risk". Same with the designation of a "foreign adversary".

Of course, there's a good for the goose argument that China thinks nothing of banning American technology companies like Google so why shouldn't we do the same?

And then there is the theory that big tech lobbying is behind all of this, especially Zuckerberg, because TikTok has been eating their lunch with its meteoric growth. In fact, one resolution is TikTok selling itself to an American tech company, which might be the end game here.

TT proposed a deal with Oracle to store all its US data in Texas and wall it off from the rest of its company and (theoretically) the government of China too. That proposal has not gone over with Biden or the members of Congress that participated in the hearing.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/s686/text

Any thoughts?


I am not a user. Probably never will be. I'm a big-time reader so short videos will never be my thing.

But 150 million Americans do use it? Let them make up their owns minds based upon the risks.

I think this is totally overblown by the politicians in vein of all the money wasted on The War on Terror and all the fear mongering that went along with that.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
DogBreath
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:52 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by DogBreath » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:30 am

If a VPN is used, how would anyone know what you accessed? Isn't the whole point of a VPN privacy from your ISP and the watchful eyes of any agency?

It might be fine to let adults make their own decisions on using the service, but minors should certainly not be doing so.
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by glennds » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:49 pm

DogBreath wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:30 am
If a VPN is used, how would anyone know what you accessed? Isn't the whole point of a VPN privacy from your ISP and the watchful eyes of any agency?
That's a common response among the tech types. Especially crypto fans ask how the gov't will know they have banned bitcoin on their external, encrypted hard drive that they keep in a home safe, with the encryption key in a box buried under a rock at the far end of stone wall in Maine.
The reality is once something becomes illegal, it gets driven into an underground market which presents all kinds of problems.

In the case of TikTok or any other banned platform, even if an individual user gets okay with committing a technical crime, the big players won't. So what will happen is Apple will take the app off their App Store, Google will do the same. Then OS updates will no longer support the apps that were downloaded pre-ban. Then the user will have to find a way to jailbreak their phone and install a bootlegged app, maybe a bootlegged OS. It just becomes too much hassle, too much risk, so the traffic disappears, which means the user experience disappears, which means the app just shrivels up.

My biggest concern is the expansive surveillance and enforcement powers the government would have through this bill. It doesn't matter whether you're a TikTok user or not, the bill affects anything and everything they administratively deem "unacceptable risk". I would have liked to have seen them have to make their case in court before being granted the authority to take action.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:09 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:49 pm

DogBreath wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:30 am

If a VPN is used, how would anyone know what you accessed? Isn't the whole point of a VPN privacy from your ISP and the watchful eyes of any agency?



That's a common response among the tech types. Especially crypto fans ask how the gov't will know they have banned bitcoin on their external, encrypted hard drive that they keep in a home safe, with the encryption key in a box buried under a rock at the far end of stone wall in Maine.
The reality is once something becomes illegal, it gets driven into an underground market which presents all kinds of problems.

In the case of TikTok or any other banned platform, even if an individual user gets okay with committing a technical crime, the big players won't. So what will happen is Apple will take the app off their App Store, Google will do the same. Then OS updates will no longer support the apps that were downloaded pre-ban. Then the user will have to find a way to jailbreak their phone and install a bootlegged app, maybe a bootlegged OS. It just becomes too much hassle, too much risk, so the traffic disappears, which means the user experience disappears, which means the app just shrivels up.

My biggest concern is the expansive surveillance and enforcement powers the government would have through this bill. It doesn't matter whether you're a TikTok user or not, the bill affects anything and everything they administratively deem "unacceptable risk". I would have liked to have seen them have to make their case in court before being granted the authority to take action.


Again following the pattern of the loss of privacy due to "The War On Terror".
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Xan » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:44 pm

There's no excuse for anyone to use TikTok. So that's one thing.

Most of the concerns about spying are dead-on correct. I would prefer a much more general Internet spying ban than banning a specific service, though. Yes, TikTok's tracking pixels and use of user data are awful. But so are Google's and Facebook's. Let's address all of that.

TikTok definitely has the other element of being run by the CCP. (I don't understand why anybody would use it knowing this.) Given that, I would support a ban. But I would much prefer a more general set of rules.
User avatar
Smith1776
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:52 pm

Proposing to ban TikTok is like proposing to ban cancer (if it were possible).

Blech.
🛞 The All-Terrain Portfolio 🛞
flyingpylon
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:04 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by flyingpylon » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:24 pm

TikTok is more dangerous as a tool of persuasion than of espionage.

The US Government doesn't like tools of persuasion that they can't control (and apparently they haven't figured out how to profit from it) hence they want to ban it.

I don't use TikTok. Part of me says it shouldn't be banned outright, but when it's being used as a weapon that changes everything and I'd be fine with a ban for now.

"People are saying" that the RESTRICT Act is another PATRIOT Act, and we all know how that turned out... don't we? Maybe another round of gross overreach is not the best approach.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Xan » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:39 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:52 pm
Proposing to ban TikTok is like proposing to ban cancer (if it were possible).

Blech.
Wait... If it were possible, you wouldn't want to ban cancer?
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by glennds » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:15 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:24 pm
TikTok is more dangerous as a tool of persuasion than of espionage.

The US Government doesn't like tools of persuasion that they can't control (and apparently they haven't figured out how to profit from it) hence they want to ban it.

Agreed. I think there's a real ability to use the algorithm to push content that intends to sway public opinion in one direction or another.

I run into people who think only a gullible idiot would be swayed in their thinking by a TT video, but the video can be featuring someone who looks like the most trusted person in your life, and sound as sincere and authentic as can be. This is why social media marketing is so effective. Fine line between "content creator" and paid pitchman. So yes, TikTok along with most social media can be a powerful propaganda weapon. Far more influential than Facebook, Instagram or Twitter, just based on engagement data.
User avatar
Smith1776
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:51 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:39 pm
Smith1776 wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:52 pm
Proposing to ban TikTok is like proposing to ban cancer (if it were possible).

Blech.
Wait... If it were possible, you wouldn't want to ban cancer?
Yeah I just worded that poorly lol.
🛞 The All-Terrain Portfolio 🛞
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:01 pm

The "Ban TikTok" Bill (full text) is misnomered.

It is a generic Bill that grants nearly "Patriot Act" powers to go after anyone (Section 3) that the government deems a security risk and grants them authority to access any of the suspect's electronic devices and networks - from computers to game consoles to ring cameras. (Section 5)

Section 3 Snippet.png
Section 3 Snippet.png (322.25 KiB) Viewed 18160 times

Section 5 Snippet.png
Section 5 Snippet.png (117.41 KiB) Viewed 18160 times

Whatever you think of banning TikTok, this Bill is much larger than that.
User avatar
joypog
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:42 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by joypog » Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:50 pm

Great! I'm all for a Tiktok ban...but I'm sick of Congress delegating powers to the executive branch.

My ideal is to ban certain types of surveillance that would cripple Tiktok's addictiveness (and FB, Twitter, Youtube, etc). Of course that's why it won't happen....
1/n weirdo. US-TSM, US-SCV, Intl-SCV, LTT, STT, GLD (+ a little in MF)
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by boglerdude » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:02 am

Image
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Xan » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:39 am

glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by glennds » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:44 am

Here is a video summary that does a great job of deconstructing the circumstances around the RESTRICT Act bill and the proposed movement to ban TikTok. Many hurdles to come, but the momentum is building. The discussion of how anti-China sentiment has evolved is good.
If you have 9:42 to spend, and find the issues interesting, have a look:

https://www.tiktok.com/@sumitsinvestmen ... 8873343274

Irony intended.

What he doesn't talk about in much detail is the broader implications for the tech world implicit in the bill.
I have been waiting with some interest to see where the tech lobby stands on this. I could see a potential successor to a TikTok ban like Meta being supportive with their short term interests in mind. But you have to wonder whether the weapon handed to the Administration through this bill will be turned on them one day.
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:06 pm

Nope, not in favor of this bill. It smells like the PATRIOT Act.

But

If Tik Tok is an intelligence operation by a foreign government targeting Americans, then counter-intelligence should probably be arresting Tik Tok employees, and/or attacking its servers and shit, right?
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
DogBreath
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:52 pm

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by DogBreath » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:03 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:39 am
Yikes:

Could the RESTRICT Act Criminalize the Use of VPNs?
There's going to be a lot of businesses that let employees work from home on a VPN very unhappy...
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by glennds » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:30 pm

DogBreath wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:03 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:39 am
Yikes:

Could the RESTRICT Act Criminalize the Use of VPNs?
There's going to be a lot of businesses that let employees work from home on a VPN very unhappy...
It's a clickbait headline. Nobody is talking about banning VPNs that are being used for legal purposes like employees working from home.
Using a VPN as a workaround for the express purpose of accessing a banned platform could be a different story.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by vnatale » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:02 pm

I do not believe that there is any evidence that the Chinese government has used TikTok in any way that we are supposed to fear them doing?

Plus Social Security is considered the third rail because the politicians do not want to antagonize those senior voters.

Are the politicians really going to antagonize 150 million TikTok users, most of them under 30 years old?

Finally, is there one person who has commented here who is either using it or has used it?

I use Facebook a lot. Twitter a fair amount. But never have used TikTok since it is 100% video based and zero word based.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by glennds » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:27 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:02 pm
I do not believe that there is any evidence that the Chinese government has used TikTok in any way that we are supposed to fear them doing?

Plus Social Security is considered the third rail because the politicians do not want to antagonize those senior voters.

Are the politicians really going to antagonize 150 million TikTok users, most of them under 30 years old?

Finally, is there one person who has commented here who is either using it or has used it?

I use Facebook a lot. Twitter a fair amount. But never have used TikTok since it is 100% video based and zero word based.
I use it a lot. Not just for entertainment, but also for the DIY and cooking content, music also. I've found it surprisingly educational. There's a guy that does a daily morning livestream of walks through the old parts of Jerusalem, and it's totally cool, makes you feel like you're there.

I appreciate your preference for reading over video. There are times when a video can convey information even more efficiently than reading. For example, have a look at the TikTok video I linked above, and tell me if in 9:42 you find it informative, maybe as much so as reading the same volume of data, assuming you could find it in one place. Not to turn this into a conversation about video versus reading. I'm a fan of reading too. Doesn't have to be either/or.

I have a friend, early 60s who believes TikTok is just videos of teenagers dancing around. That's like saying YouTube is nothing but cat videos, and eBay sells mostly beanie babies. That said, there is a lot of nonsense on TikTok, and a lot of embedded advertising because that's basically how these content creators make money being content creators.

I don't know if the CCP has used the platform nefariously (yet). I think the issue is the power the platform has for persuasion and propaganda AND that the CCP has the control to use the algorithm in such a manner i.e. feed users the content they want, even subtly.

For politicians right now, there is only upside in being "tough on China".
But like someone else mentioned, the RESTRICT act bill poses issues much bigger than TikTok, and hands tremendous unchecked power to the Administration.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by vnatale » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:41 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:27 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:02 pm

I do not believe that there is any evidence that the Chinese government has used TikTok in any way that we are supposed to fear them doing?

Plus Social Security is considered the third rail because the politicians do not want to antagonize those senior voters.

Are the politicians really going to antagonize 150 million TikTok users, most of them under 30 years old?

Finally, is there one person who has commented here who is either using it or has used it?

I use Facebook a lot. Twitter a fair amount. But never have used TikTok since it is 100% video based and zero word based.

I use it a lot. Not just for entertainment, but also for the DIY and cooking content, music also. I've found it surprisingly educational. There's a guy that does a daily morning livestream of walks through the old parts of Jerusalem, and it's totally cool, makes you feel like you're there.

I appreciate your preference for reading over video. There are times when a video can convey information even more efficiently than reading. For example, have a look at the TikTok video I linked above, and tell me if in 9:42 you find it informative, maybe as much so as reading the same volume of data, assuming you could find it in one place. Not to turn this into a conversation about video versus reading. I'm a fan of reading too. Doesn't have to be either/or.

I have a friend, early 60s who believes TikTok is just videos of teenagers dancing around. That's like saying YouTube is nothing but cat videos, and eBay sells mostly beanie babies. That said, there is a lot of nonsense on TikTok, and a lot of embedded advertising because that's basically how these content creators make money being content creators.

I don't know if the CCP has used the platform nefariously (yet). I think the issue is the power the platform has for persuasion and propaganda AND that the CCP has the control to use the algorithm in such a manner i.e. feed users the content they want, even subtly.

For politicians right now, there is only upside in being "tough on China".
But like someone else mentioned, the RESTRICT act bill poses issues much bigger than TikTok, and hands tremendous unchecked power to the Administration.


My reading biases come from the following:

1) I read at 900 words per minute while the average speaker speaks 200 words a minute. So I can read 4.5 times the same information being spoken.

2) Video is completely analog. That is, no scanning / skipping around it like I can do with anything in writing.

3) In general a video is demanding my 100% attention while reading does not. While I'm reading (particularly going through emails or doing some internet searches, not reading a book) in the pauses between actual reading I can listen to the podcast I have on now (Fox News Sunday) or The MLB Network I have on my TV right now.

4) Plus amplification to #2 video demands both my eyes and my ears. Reading only requires my eyes freeing up my ears for whatever I want to feed it. Generally would not have a podcast on while reading a book. But will definitely have music on. As I am about to do now when I shift to reading a book.

I do put on a fair amount of videos from YouTube but almost always only for the sounds they provide -- like Lex Fridman's podcasts or music videos or any other podcast I can just listen to while I'm outside doing some work and my ears are 100% available.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by boglerdude » Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:58 am

Tiktok-Frodo.png
Tiktok-Frodo.png (176.46 KiB) Viewed 18012 times
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14228
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by dualstow » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:05 am

If they ban TikTok in the U.S., then we just have the other 3 most popular apps to wory about.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: TikTok ban thoughts?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:47 pm

Oh my gosh! I thought this thread was a call for silent clocks. ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Post Reply