Ohio Disaster

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Maddy
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Maddy » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:01 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:38 pm
We all have our own judgments of what is credible and what is honest.

There is a usually a consensus of who is a credible and and an honest person and who is not.
It would have been another thing entirely had you responded to the video by saying, "I don't believe a word Tucker Carlson says because he has shifty eyes." At least then the reader could evaluate for himself the reasonableness of your belief that shifty eyes are a reliable indicator of veracity.

But accusing someone of spreading "misinformation" is quite different. It implies that you have knowledge of actual facts that contradict what is being said and that should cause others to similarly dismiss the speaker's message.

Here, your claim that the video was "misinformation" was obviously a bluff, specifically intended to cast doubt upon the reliability of the message--but ultimately revealed to be lacking entirely in any factual foundation. This is not only intellectually dishonest, but abhorrent in the sense that it is intended to prey upon people who don't have time or the inclination to ferret out the truth for themselves.

I'd also point out that an unfounded charge of "misinformation" is an especially serious thing in a politically incendiary environment where that label has been weaponized--especially against conservatives--in an effort to defame, destroy, and to silence anyone who dares defy the prevailing political narrative. So when you pull the pin on a grenade of that kind, you'd better be able to duck if it gets thrown back at you.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by jalanlong » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:45 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:55 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:41 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:55 pm
Regardless, Vinny, you and Maddy are just talking past each other. If you're going to listen to the video and respond to her questions, then please do so, and if not, just say you're not. But it really isn't fair to say the video is an example of bad stuff without being able to explain why.
I made my initial comment regarding the video and stated that I did not give it my full attention upon first watching it and am not yet in a position to give it my full attention. All the rest has been me basically giving responses.

I also did say that with the limited attention I was giving to the video that I got enough out of it to realize it was Tucker Carlson being up to his usual tricks. That is my explanation as to why.

That isn't explaining why; it's a tautology. And there's no time limit on a reply: if you're not ready to answer yet, it's okay to just wait until you are.
I am not sure you are going to get a logical answer out of Vinnie. I am still confused by his thread a few weeks ago about how he calls himself an "extreme fiscal conservative" but yet his two chosen candidates in the last Presidential election were Amy Klobuchar and Tulsi Gabbard, both of whom pretty much tow the Democratic Party line on Universal Health Care, Free College etc. Conservative can mean different things to different people but I can't imagine many people who would describe their economic policies as conservative.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:50 pm

I've found that the forum is much more usable if you leave Vinny on ignore.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by vnatale » Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:57 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:01 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:38 pm

We all have our own judgments of what is credible and what is honest.

There is a usually a consensus of who is a credible and and an honest person and who is not.



It would have been another thing entirely had you responded to the video by saying, "I don't believe a word Tucker Carlson says because he has shifty eyes." At least then the reader could evaluate for himself the reasonableness of your belief that shifty eyes are a reliable indicator of veracity.

But accusing someone of spreading "misinformation" is quite different. It implies that you have knowledge of actual facts that contradict what is being said and that should cause others to similarly dismiss the speaker's message.

Here, your claim that the video was "misinformation" was obviously a bluff, specifically intended to cast doubt upon the reliability of the message--but ultimately revealed to be lacking entirely in any factual foundation. This is not only intellectually dishonest, but abhorrent in the sense that it is intended to prey upon people who don't have time or the inclination to ferret out the truth for themselves.

I'd also point out that an unfounded charge of "misinformation" is an especially serious thing in a politically incendiary environment where that label has been weaponized--especially against conservatives--in an effort to defame, destroy, and to silence anyone who dares defy the prevailing political narrative. So when you pull the pin on a grenade of that kind, you'd better be able to duck if it gets thrown back at you.


I know you are a lawyer.

I also know if it came down to making a case with both of in possession of the same set of facts .... I would not want you as an opponent. In almost every case you would destroy me. You have gifts that I do not.

If what you say above is true regarding what is implied by accusing someone of spreading "misinformation", one must then have knowledge of the actual facts ...then I have to plead NOLO to that specific charge of not meeting that standard.

However, in a prior video of his that you (or possibly someone else put here) I did listen to that one three times (though while doing other things and not able to take any notes regarding what he had to say). In that case I was in possession of facts so that I was able to discern that his overall message was false. It told me that Tucker Carlson is not at all interested in conveying anything that is near truthful but does what he does for a variety of other reasons - fame, money, entertainment, ego .... the list could go on.

In the case of the video you put here to start my topic (with specifically asking a response from me) .... even with me barely paying much attention to what he was saying I could quickly discern that he doing his usual: stringing together a bunch of words to intentionally mislead the listener.

Me characterizing his misleading as misinformation was no bluff. That is not my style or method of operation.

As far as preying upon any people my assumption would be that all here are probably even more familiar with him than I am and fall into one of two camps. Distrusting anything he has to say (like me) or trusting anything he has to say (seemingly you which is quite pardoxical to me given your obvious level of intelligence and ability to analyze).

As far as your last paragraph goes .... until reading what you wrote above I had no idea how using the word "misinformation" could be taken. I am now forewarned to think more carefully before I use it again and to be prepared to point out all the factual errors and misinterpretations if I again use that word.

I sincerely thank you for this educational experience.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Xan » Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:44 pm

Why not just watch the video and then comment, or say that you're not going to? Seems to me we're arguing here for no reason.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by dualstow » Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:24 am

Maddy wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:00 am
The environmental disaster taking place in Ohio from a Norfolk Southern derailed train should outrage both sides of the political aisle. After the smoke clears, investigations will take place and most likely will show that there is plenty of blame to be shared, including all levels of government and both political parties.


https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://ww ... aster.html
{ American Thinker article }

Thank you for posting this, Maddy.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Maddy » Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:40 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:57 pm

I know you are a lawyer.

I also know if it came down to making a case with both of in possession of the same set of facts .... I would not want you as an opponent. In almost every case you would destroy me. . .

If what you say above is true regarding what is implied by accusing someone of spreading "misinformation", one must then have knowledge of the actual facts ...then I have to plead NOLO to that specific charge of not meeting that standard.


However, in a prior video of his . . . I did listen to that one three times (though while doing other things and not able to take any notes regarding what he had to say). In that case I was in possession of facts so that I was able to discern that his overall message was false. It told me that Tucker Carlson is not at all interested in conveying anything that is near truthful but does what he does for a variety of other reasons - fame, money, entertainment, ego .... the list could go on.

In the case of the video you put here to start my topic (with specifically asking a response from me) .... even with me barely paying much attention to what he was saying I could quickly discern that he doing his usual: stringing together a bunch of words to intentionally mislead the listener.

* * *

As far as your last paragraph goes .... until reading what you wrote above I had no idea how using the word "misinformation" could be taken. . .

I did not "outlawyer you." I did nothing tricky or leading or manipulative that would put you at some disadvantage in this discussion. I did not attempt to "make a case" or to require you to make one.

What I did was to ask you to identify the particular information that caused you to claim that the video I posted constituted "misinformation." That is not asking a lot--especially on a forum distinguished by the fact that in serious discussions participants nearly always reference their sources, provide facts to support their conclusions, and otherwise defend their positions in the spirit of honest debate.

You claimed initially that you "did not have time" to respond to my question. Yet you continued to post, dancing around the issue to the point of absurdity. After evading my question repeatedly, you now finally acknowledge that you had no factual basis whatsoever for your charge of "misinformation." You appear to admit (albeit with a gamey reference to "nolo contendere") that you had no knowledge of the actual facts. You appear to admit (by reference to a previous video that you say you did listen to) that you had not even watched the video.

Why did you feel compelled to comment upon--much less discredit--a video that you had not even watched? Is this your idea of honest debate? Why did it take a day's worth of bandwith to get you to come clean about the fact that your charge of "misinformation" on a matter of significant public importance had absolutely no basis in fact?

You state that you've learned something from all this, but it appears that you still do not get it. You now claim that the word "misinformation" is ambiguous, and that you did not understand it to have anything to do with "facts." Well it does. It has everything to do with facts. And facts matter.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by vnatale » Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:52 am

jalanlong wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:45 pm



I am not sure you are going to get a logical answer out of Vinnie. I am still confused by his thread a few weeks ago about how he calls himself an "extreme fiscal conservative" but yet his two chosen candidates in the last Presidential election were Amy Klobuchar and Tulsi Gabbard, both of whom pretty much tow the Democratic Party line on Universal Health Care, Free College etc. Conservative can mean different things to different people but I can't imagine many people who would describe their economic policies as conservative.


I don't think you are as much accusing me of being illogical but are, instead, accusing me of being inconsistent or contradictory in that you believe my behavior is not meeting my stated values.

I tried to explain this to you but obviously I did not give you a successful explanation for what you perceive to be inconsistent / contradictory behavior on my part. I will try again here.

Did I use the exact phrase "extreme fiscal conservative"? If so, I was not saying that I'm a "conservative" in general political terms but that in fiscal matters I'm going to be in favor of doing whatever is necessary to have the least amount of deficit (and, even hopefully, a surplus) for each fiscal year.

I believe I stated that no party comes closes to that. Therefore, no party gets credit from me and my vote based upon that alone.

I believe that your logic in accusing me of being in being inconsistent / contradictory is as follows:

1) I stated I am extreme on fiscal matters.

2) The Republicans hold themselves out to be to be more fiscally responsible than the Democrats.

3) Therefore I should vote for the Republicans

Several things missing from the premises behind your logic.

I stated that both parties are so far from where I am on fiscal matters that no party (i.e., the Republicans) are going to get my vote based upon their purported stance on fiscal matters.

You seen to believe that the Republicans are the more fiscally responsible party.

That is what they attempt to convey.

However, let's look at their behaviors in this area.

In the last 30 years or so of presidential administrations which party's administrations have been more fiscally reckless?

Was it fiscally responsible for Obama's predecessor to cut taxes and start an unnecessary extremely expensive war?

Was it fiscally responsible for Obama's successor to also cut taxes?

Finally, I'd also stated that being fiscally responsible was not my only criteria. I looked at the whole person.

For many people they see being President as running around giving speeches (e.g., Bernie Sanders).

I see being President as being a real job.

Therefore I want someone who is not going to do everything the way I would want them to be done but who is, instead, qualified to be President.

That entails many things among them being intelligent, a diligent worker, using information in making decisions, putting the country first before his or her own interests, and a number of other qualifications.

Does that make it any more clearer to you why I had my preferences?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by vnatale » Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:05 am

Maddy wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:40 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:57 pm


I know you are a lawyer.

I also know if it came down to making a case with both of in possession of the same set of facts .... I would not want you as an opponent. In almost every case you would destroy me. . .

If what you say above is true regarding what is implied by accusing someone of spreading "misinformation", one must then have knowledge of the actual facts ...then I have to plead NOLO to that specific charge of not meeting that standard.


However, in a prior video of his . . . I did listen to that one three times (though while doing other things and not able to take any notes regarding what he had to say). In that case I was in possession of facts so that I was able to discern that his overall message was false. It told me that Tucker Carlson is not at all interested in conveying anything that is near truthful but does what he does for a variety of other reasons - fame, money, entertainment, ego .... the list could go on.

In the case of the video you put here to start my topic (with specifically asking a response from me) .... even with me barely paying much attention to what he was saying I could quickly discern that he doing his usual: stringing together a bunch of words to intentionally mislead the listener.

* * *

As far as your last paragraph goes .... until reading what you wrote above I had no idea how using the word "misinformation" could be taken. . .



I did not "outlawyer you." I did nothing tricky or leading or manipulative that would put you at some disadvantage in this discussion. I did not attempt to "make a case" or to require you to make one.

What I did was to ask you to identify the particular information that caused you to claim that the video I posted constituted "misinformation." That is not asking a lot--especially on a forum distinguished by the fact that in serious discussions participants nearly always reference their sources, provide facts to support their conclusions, and otherwise defend their positions in the spirit of honest debate.

You claimed initially that you "did not have time" to respond to my question. Yet you continued to post, dancing around the issue to the point of absurdity. After evading my question repeatedly, you now finally acknowledge that you had no factual basis whatsoever for your charge of "misinformation." You appear to admit (albeit with a gamey reference to "nolo contendere") that you had no knowledge of the actual facts. You appear to admit (by reference to a previous video that you say you did listen to) that you had not even watched the video.

Why did you feel compelled to comment upon--much less discredit--a video that you had not even watched? Is this your idea of honest debate? Why did it take a day's worth of bandwith to get you to come clean about the fact that your charge of "misinformation" on a matter of significant public importance had absolutely no basis in fact?

You state that you've learned something from all this, but it appears that you still do not get it. You now claim that the word "misinformation" is ambiguous, and that you did not understand it to have anything to do with "facts." Well it does. It has everything to do with facts. And facts matter.


Regarding "outlawyer you". I was not being pejorative. I was not implying or accusing you of anything you state in your first paragraph.

To clarify the facts from my end. I did watch the beginning of the video in this topic. It was not keeping my full attention (especially in competition with the Celtics game I already had on when I first started the video). But I saw enough to believe it fit right in with the prior Tucker Carlson video that I had listened to three times.

Regarding your last three paragraphs ... I'm definitely not agreeing with your characterizations of my behavior. Those are your opinions that I'm not going to be able to change by any further explanations on my part.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Xan » Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:56 am

Vinny, please either watch the video without a basketball game on and offer your criticism of it, or withdraw from this conversation.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by vnatale » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:34 pm

Xan wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:56 am

Vinny, please either watch the video without a basketball game on and offer your criticism of it, or withdraw from this conversation.


Fine with me. I was in a responding mode. If no one else has anything to say to me that deserves a response then I am done on this topic.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Smith1776 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:38 pm

Poor Vinny. :(
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by boglerdude » Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:37 am

He'll be fine. Vinny's irrepressible.

> Why did you feel compelled to comment upon--much less discredit--a video

You know why. Humans need to pick a tribe, red or blue. Its a powerful instinct, us/them ingroup/outgroup haves/have-nots. Do you have more in common with "empathic/caring" collectivists or selfish capitalists. The team you pick are the good guys, because you are a good person. We're all more ethical than average.

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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:07 am

O0
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:18 am

boglerdude wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:37 am
He'll be fine. Vinny's irrepressible.

> Why did you feel compelled to comment upon--much less discredit--a video

You know why. Humans need to pick a tribe, red or blue. Its a powerful instinct, us/them ingroup/outgroup haves/have-nots. Do you have more in common with "empathic/caring" collectivists or selfish capitalists. The team you pick are the good guys, because you are a good person. We're all more ethical than average.

As a vegan libertarian I dont have many friends ;)
It's not the "feel compelled to comment" part that puzzles and disturbs me. It's the "when you haven't even watched the video" part that does.

I'm a great believer in the traditional precept that you defend and idea rather than shut down the opposition. What's the phrase--"Counter speech with more speech?"
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by joypog » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:13 am

Vinny watched the video enough to realize it was the typical drivel from Tucker Carlson and dismissed it out of hand. A viewer doesn't owe an established media personality a fresh slate every time a new video is posted. I don't have to presume that Trump isn't lying or Biden isn't having a senior moment every time they open their mouths.

You were the one who imposed upon Vinny by asking for his response.

I'd say Vinny gave you plenty for your request, though Xan is an administrator and thinks otherwise, so maybe I'm wrong here.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:40 am

joypog wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:13 am
Vinny watched the video enough to realize it was the typical drivel from Tucker Carlson and dismissed it out of hand. A viewer doesn't owe an established media personality a fresh slate every time a new video is posted. I don't have to presume that Trump isn't lying or Biden isn't having a senior moment every time they open their mouths.

You were the one who imposed upon Vinny by asking for his response.

I'd say Vinny gave you plenty for your request, though Xan is an administrator and thinks otherwise, so maybe I'm wrong here.

The subject of the thread was not Tucker Carlson. The subject was the Ohio disaster--perhaps the most significant environmental disaster in recent U.S. history--and the federal government's response (non-response) to it.

Vinny offered absolutely nothing on that subject. No additional facts, no analysis, no criticism of the analysis set forth in the video. Nothing. And when pressed to come up with actual ideas--again regarding the substance of the video--he was unable to do so. Now we know the reason: He had not even bothered to watch it.

The presumed purpose, and obvious effect, of Vinny's multiple, drawn-out posts was not to further the discussion of the Ohio disaster or the federal government's response to it. It was to shut the discussion down. Seems like we've seen a lot of that lately.

Maybe that stuff passes on other discussion boards, but it's not the kind of thoughtful content that has traditionally defined this forum.
Last edited by Maddy on Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by joypog » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:53 am

Vinny offered a meme and a quoted article. Which is more than what you initially offered with a bare link to a Tucker video.

You're asking Vinny to do more than what you did yourself concerning that video.

And if you truly wanted to discuss the matter, why did you completely ignore the very first comment after your OP - a substantive response by I Shrugged critiquing the video?
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Maddy » Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:01 am

Vinny offered a meme and a quoted article. Which is more than what you initially offered with a bare link to a Tucker video.
Once again, the video posted by Vinny had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. It involved a generic trashing of Tucker Carlson's "brand." I should not have been required to draw attention to that twice.

I truly believe that there are participants on this forum whose principal purpose is to break the forum down. Why? Because critical thought is incompatible with their agenda.

I've said my peace about this, and it is now veering off into the ridiculous. Accordingly, I'm done.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by joypog » Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:02 am

Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:01 am
Vinny offered a meme and a quoted article. Which is more than what you initially offered with a bare link to a Tucker video.
Once again, the video posted by Vinny had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. It involved a generic trashing of Tucker Carlson's "brand." I should not have been required to draw attention to that twice.
For the record. This is your original post with the video link that I was talking about in my response.
Maddy wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:21 am
And yes, this DOES belong in Politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HckqNQ9Ci5M

Does anyone want to provide a counterpoint to this? How 'bout you, Vinny?
~
Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:01 am
I truly believe that there are participants on this forum whose principal purpose is to break the forum down. Why? Because critical thought is incompatible with their agenda.
My apologies if Vinny inappropriately shared a video that triggered you (I didn't notice it, but I didn't read this thread line by line either). Clearly it derailed this thread away from the actual disaster in Ohio.

But while we're still going meta, I suggest (again) that you should respond to the very first comment to your OP by I Shrugged. If you want less Vinny and want more dialogue, then it would be beneficial to address the comments that critically respond to your assertions.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:10 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:18 am
boglerdude wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:37 am
He'll be fine. Vinny's irrepressible.

> Why did you feel compelled to comment upon--much less discredit--a video

You know why. Humans need to pick a tribe, red or blue. Its a powerful instinct, us/them ingroup/outgroup haves/have-nots. Do you have more in common with "empathic/caring" collectivists or selfish capitalists. The team you pick are the good guys, because you are a good person. We're all more ethical than average.

As a vegan libertarian I dont have many friends ;)
It's not the "feel compelled to comment" part that puzzles and disturbs me. It's the "when you haven't even watched the video" part that does.

I'm a great believer in the traditional precept that you defend and idea rather than shut down the opposition. What's the phrase--"Counter speech with more speech?"
As a vegan libertarian I dont have many friends ;)
My Birkenstocks give me the same problem. A conservative in Birkenstocks is a real mind**** for many people.
Is a Birkenstock anything like a bumpstock? If so, watch out, you will be BidenBumpBanned. ;) ;D
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by boglerdude » Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:49 pm

> I truly believe that there are participants on this forum whose principal purpose is to break the forum down

If that's a consequence of protecting their internal leftist narrative, so be it. Closing schools, muzzling kids. Had to be done, leaders said so.

Everyone here believes they have the moral high ground. All conflicts are like that, except the sting pullers at the top who can see the entire battlefield and play both sides.
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by joypog » Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:07 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:49 pm
> I truly believe that there are participants on this forum whose principal purpose is to break the forum down

If that's a consequence of protecting their internal leftist narrative, so be it. Closing schools, muzzling kids. Had to be done, leaders said so.

Everyone here believes they have the moral high ground. All conflicts are like that, except the sting pullers at the top who can see the entire battlefield and play both sides.
Are you implying that Maddy is also a sheeple? >:D

Whoohoo welcome to the club! O0
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Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by boglerdude » Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:42 pm

We're all in this together
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Smith1776
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3501
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Ohio Disaster

Post by Smith1776 » Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:29 pm

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky

Imagine all the people
Livin' for today
Ah

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too

Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace
You
I still find the James Rickards portfolio fascinating.
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