The Fourth Branch of Government

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The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by flyingpylon » Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:07 am

This is a lengthy but interesting article that describes what has happened to the US intelligence apparatus since 9/11. It helps explain (as background info) some of the issues involved in recent threads regarding Hunter Biden, the Deep State, Russia collusion, and others but deserves its own thread.

“The Force for Change,” The Use of Twitter During the Arab Spring as a Technological Beta Test for U.S. Intelligence Control of Public Opinion and Elections

Most of the article is not actually about Twitter but uses it as a lead-in. Curious to see if anyone has thoughts about it or about the role the intelligence agencies now play in our lives.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by boglerdude » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:15 am

Everyone's made up their mind on how much of a threat the US gov is to them. 70% of people want to be paid to stay home, and will never understand inflation.

There's no stopping the improvement of surveillance and control technology.

I'm wondering how freedom and civil liberties were ever celebrated in America. I guess China made communism look more appealing than the USSR, and my grandfathers who fought WW2 and ran the households (gasp, patriarchy) are gone
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:12 am

boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:15 am
Everyone's made up their mind on how much of a threat the US gov is to them. 70% of people want to be paid to stay home, and will never understand inflation.

There's no stopping the improvement of surveillance and control technology.

I'm wondering how freedom and civil liberties were ever celebrated in America. I guess China made communism look more appealing than the USSR, and my grandfathers who fought WW2 and ran the households (gasp, patriarchy) are gone
Maybe one day time travel will be added to the list of technological innovation. And if that day comes, those that wish can go back to the good old days when things were good. I wonder which period would be most popular?
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by joypog » Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:16 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:12 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:15 am
Everyone's made up their mind on how much of a threat the US gov is to them. 70% of people want to be paid to stay home, and will never understand inflation.

There's no stopping the improvement of surveillance and control technology.

I'm wondering how freedom and civil liberties were ever celebrated in America. I guess China made communism look more appealing than the USSR, and my grandfathers who fought WW2 and ran the households (gasp, patriarchy) are gone
Maybe one day time travel will be added to the list of technological innovation. And if that day comes, those that wish can go back to the good old days when things were good. I wonder which period would be most popular?
To push the thought experiment a little bit. Assume that this special time machine might mix up your race and gender before depositing you into that period of time...but you don't know what you'll be when you arrive.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Maddy » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:04 pm

I remain hopeful, and here's why:

Today's young people are not anti-freedom. They love freedom, but in the context of their own narcissistic values, which, thanks to parental coddling, educational deprivation, and endless social safety nets, don't go much beyond the freedom to sleep until noon and the freedom to act upon whatever hedonistic impulse they feel. They yearn for the freedom to devote their time to self-actualizing through art, dance, and travel. They assert the freedom to trample other peoples' rights in the name of whatever cause happens to stir them. They clamor for the freedom to redefine themselves free of the constraints of social norms--or of even biology.

I would contend that the same political establishment that presently seeks to dismantle everything principled, productive, and noble pulled off a monumentally clever feat when, a little more than a half a century ago, it promised a generation of young people the freedom to "do your own thing." It was an extremely powerful tool that did more for the Marxist cause than any political revolution ever could have.

This administration has followed the same basic play book, creating a generation of do-nothings with expectations that ultimately will not, and cannot, be met. There comes a point, after the student loans are canceled, the stimulus checks stop, and the credit cards are maxed out, that the money runs out and that the productive members of society get tired of being shit on and simply refuse to pull the wagon. At that point, the do-nothings are going to have a rude awakening. I really can't see it any other way.

But the desire for freedom is so innate and well ingrained--even among the most useless members of society--that I don't see it disappearing. With any luck, the hard lessons learned will cause it to be refocused on something substantial.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:26 pm

joypog wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:16 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:12 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:15 am
Everyone's made up their mind on how much of a threat the US gov is to them. 70% of people want to be paid to stay home, and will never understand inflation.

There's no stopping the improvement of surveillance and control technology.

I'm wondering how freedom and civil liberties were ever celebrated in America. I guess China made communism look more appealing than the USSR, and my grandfathers who fought WW2 and ran the households (gasp, patriarchy) are gone
Maybe one day time travel will be added to the list of technological innovation. And if that day comes, those that wish can go back to the good old days when things were good. I wonder which period would be most popular?
To push the thought experiment a little bit. Assume that this special time machine might mix up your race and gender before depositing you into that period of time...but you don't know what you'll be when you arrive.
You've basically written the premise for a provocative Black Mirror episode.
The Twilight Zone movie from the early 80's had a segment with Vic Morrow that overlaps a bit with what you're describing.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Maddy » Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:53 pm

I seriously doubt that China made communism more appealing than the USSR. I think what makes communism appealing in this country is the still very vibrant class of innovators and producers who bust their hump to keep the show going. But for this highly productive class, whom it is assumed will always continue pulling the wagon, communism would be a pretty bleak proposition.

I learned this from the first episode of Survivor.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Kbg » Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:31 pm

Trump's Deep State team not doing so well where things like facts and evidence matter.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63305382

0 for 2.

Waiting for the right wing outrage on behalf of Mr. Danchenko.

For sure though...2015-2017 were not good years for the FBI.

As I've said many times on this board...all political parties would be well advised to keep security/military organizations at arms length and non-political. Mixing the two never works well for either side.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by flyingpylon » Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:06 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:31 pm
Trump's Deep State team not doing so well where things like facts and evidence matter.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63305382

0 for 2.

Waiting for the right wing outrage on behalf of Mr. Danchenko.

For sure though...2015-2017 were not good years for the FBI.

As I've said many times on this board...all political parties would be well advised to keep security/military organizations at arms length and non-political. Mixing the two never works well for either side.
Who do you think is on “Trump’s Deep State Team”?

Should we just casually dismiss the FBI’s transgressions?
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Kbg » Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:55 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:06 pm
Who do you think is on “Trump’s Deep State Team”?

Should we just casually dismiss the FBI’s transgressions?
Nobody now, but rest assured the deep state's actions are driven by the politicos not the peons. If one hates the deep state and think it's a Democrat only thing I laugh heartily in your face. Like the Jan 6 hearings or not, they have brought to light what happened and Mr. Trump was in serious deep state mode.

But for the record, the deep state is a far right wing made up entity who think the law shouldn't apply to their "moral righteousness" which of course is life as they think it should be for us all (and fundamentally anti-conservative politically). However, it does make for good click bait to sell merch and drive web traffic and associated advertising dollars.

On the FBI, no we should not...and that is why the FBI shouldn't be politicized and individual wrong doing should lead to the person being held accountable.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by flyingpylon » Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:54 pm

Kbg wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:55 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:06 pm
Who do you think is on “Trump’s Deep State Team”?

Should we just casually dismiss the FBI’s transgressions?
Nobody now, but rest assured the deep state's actions are driven by the politicos not the peons. If one hates the deep state and think it's a Democrat only thing I laugh heartily in your face. Like the Jan 6 hearings or not, they have brought to light what happened and Mr. Trump was in serious deep state mode.

But for the record, the deep state is a far right wing made up entity who think the law shouldn't apply to their "moral righteousness" which of course is life as they think it should be for us all (and fundamentally anti-conservative politically). However, it does make for good click bait to sell merch and drive web traffic and associated advertising dollars.

On the FBI, no we should not...and that is why the FBI shouldn't be politicized and individual wrong doing should lead to the person being held accountable.
Definitely not Democrat only.

But you said that Trump’s Deep State team (with nobody on it, apparently) was now 0-2. Based on your link, that would refer to the Durham investigation. Were you referring to something else? Because I’m not sure Durham or Barr were on Trump’s team at all. It’s possible that they were more concerned with protecting the FBI. Barr was the bondo and Durham was the spray paint, as some say.

Do you think we’re on a path to holding individuals in the FBI accountable? Are they the right individuals?
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by seajay » Thu Oct 20, 2022 4:31 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 11:12 am
Maybe one day time travel will be added to the list of technological innovation. And if that day comes, those that wish can go back to the good old days when things were good. I wonder which period would be most popular?
We're 75% there - forward time travel and a form of going back in time, relatively (via travelling at very fast speeds you can drop back into standard time younger than everyone else). But going back in time to change the past is a impossibility.
Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Kbg » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:54 pm
But you said that Trump’s Deep State team (with nobody on it, apparently) was now 0-2. Based on your link, that would refer to the Durham investigation. Were you referring to something else? Because I’m not sure Durham or Barr were on Trump’s team at all. It’s possible that they were more concerned with protecting the FBI. Barr was the bondo and Durham was the spray paint, as some say.

Do you think we’re on a path to holding individuals in the FBI accountable? Are they the right individuals?
No the investigation. I think it was a good investigation to start to clear the air, but the fact is criminally nothing is sticking when a jury gets to hear the evidence. Invoke cliché...smoke but no fire. I think Barr was like many other officials who stepped away from Trump Bar when he started going full on whack-a-doo after he lost the election.

IIRC the two senior agents who let their politics (democratic) get in the way of their professional responsibilities and ethics were both forced to retire/resign

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doj-off ... d=73611918

https://apnews.com/article/election-202 ... 70d66cefec

By take on Barr is A) that he's a classic conservative and B) he's got some integrity.

Trump does not give loyalty nor does he retain it amongst people who walk in the circles of power...to me that says a lot about the man as a person. In 2016 my take on him was that he was a sleazebag and he's done nothing to change that opinion. (Personal bias made public. :) )
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by vnatale » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:14 am

Kbg wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am


By take on Barr is A) that he's a classic conservative and B) he's got some integrity.

Trump does not give loyalty nor does he retain it amongst people who walk in the circles of power...to me that says a lot about the man as a person. In 2016 my take on him was that he was a sleazebag and he's done nothing to change that opinion. (Personal bias made public. :) )


Yes, some, but little.

Until the end he acted as Trump wanted him to act. As Trump's lawyer. Not as the country's lawyer.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:28 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:54 pm
But you said that Trump’s Deep State team (with nobody on it, apparently) was now 0-2. Based on your link, that would refer to the Durham investigation. Were you referring to something else? Because I’m not sure Durham or Barr were on Trump’s team at all. It’s possible that they were more concerned with protecting the FBI. Barr was the bondo and Durham was the spray paint, as some say.

Do you think we’re on a path to holding individuals in the FBI accountable? Are they the right individuals?
No the investigation. I think it was a good investigation to start to clear the air, but the fact is criminally nothing is sticking when a jury gets to hear the evidence. Invoke cliché...smoke but no fire. I think Barr was like many other officials who stepped away from Trump Bar when he started going full on whack-a-doo after he lost the election.

IIRC the two senior agents who let their politics (democratic) get in the way of their professional responsibilities and ethics were both forced to retire/resign

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doj-off ... d=73611918

https://apnews.com/article/election-202 ... 70d66cefec

By take on Barr is A) that he's a classic conservative and B) he's got some integrity.

Trump does not give loyalty nor does he retain it amongst people who walk in the circles of power...to me that says a lot about the man as a person. In 2016 my take on him was that he was a sleazebag and he's done nothing to change that opinion. (Personal bias made public. :) )
This is not necessarily a D vs R thing, that's a distraction. If Jeb! had won in 2016 we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because Jeb! is a member of The Club and is willing to "play ball". The FBI would not have spied on his campaign or promoted a hoax in an attempt to cover their butts and destroy his presidency.

It's absurd to suggest that Ohr and Clinesmith represent the full extent of the malfeasance at the FBI/DOJ. You appear to be either very poorly informed on this topic or deliberately attempting to downplay the situation.

There's smoke but no fire because investigators weren't really investigating, they were misdirecting and slow-walking the entire process to run out the clock, prevent the release of damaging information, and create false narratives to make the FBI look like victims (hence the Danchenko charge and the fact that Durham never targeted anyone inside the DOJ).

Barr is a Club member and chose to protect the FBI/DOJ rather than allow it to be exposed. All of that started well before the 2020 election. Right now he's creating more smoke by acknowledging that there was abuse at the FBI and saying that Durham's final report will lay out all the facts, but what are the chances that anyone at or near the top is ever held accountable? Permanent Washington always protects itself.

Even if for the sake of argument we establish that Trump is a sleazebag, it doesn't justify an attempt to oust a sitting President or the continued resistance to transparency. The ends don't justify the means. We should expect and demand much better from our government officials.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Maddy » Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:58 pm

And it turns out those Russian operatives were all . . . Hillary!
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:31 pm

Desert wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:26 am
This article is very long, but is a good summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the Mueller investigation:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/collusion-r ... ittee-find

There are also links directly to the senate report, which is a good read.

[clipped quoted material]
With all due respect, what is the point of your post?

Lawfare is hardly a neutral party in all of this, they're an organization full of Obama ideologues. So the fact that they would publish an article that casts Trump and his campaign in a bad light is not surprising. They acknowledge that their interpretation of the Senate Intelligence Committee's report is notably closer to that of the Democrats than the Republicans. We can set aside any issues with the Senate Intelligence Committee itself for now.

For the sake of argument, let's say that there was enough questionable activity to launch an inquiry of some kind. And that Trump is a sleazebag.

Is there a section in the article that justifies illegal and unethical actions by the FBI/DOJ and excuses their continued lack of transparency? Or anything that justifies the use of the DOJ to target one's political opposition?
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Jack Jones » Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:59 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:04 pm
There comes a point, after the student loans are canceled, the stimulus checks stop, and the credit cards are maxed out, that the money runs out and that the productive members of society get tired of being shit on and simply refuse to pull the wagon. At that point, the do-nothings are going to have a rude awakening. I really can't see it any other way.
What does this look like? How does Atlas shrug in this day and age?

As we deal w/ supply chain shortages, perhaps it is already underway.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:13 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:59 pm
Maddy wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:04 pm
There comes a point, after the student loans are canceled, the stimulus checks stop, and the credit cards are maxed out, that the money runs out and that the productive members of society get tired of being shit on and simply refuse to pull the wagon. At that point, the do-nothings are going to have a rude awakening. I really can't see it any other way.
What does this look like? How does Atlas shrug in this day and age?

As we deal w/ supply chain shortages, perhaps it is already underway.

I had a successful business. I got tired of being vilified for being successful, especially given the amount of taxes I was paying. Got a new idea to give people free stuff? Mandate that businesses do it. Etc. No one ever thanks business for driving the economy by employing people and meeting needs. But if it’s cops or teachers, man, they walk on water.

It finally got to me when I realized I could sell it and walk away in my 40s. At the time I had just read Atlas, and HB’s Freedom book. So screw it, I sold it all, and invested in muni bonds and tax efficient stock funds. Some years we paid zero federal tax. That’s why and how I shrugged.

And why Liz Warren would hate me. :)

Not as dramatic as in the novel, but it’s still a way of withdrawing my financial support for a system that treated me like crap.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by vnatale » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:46 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:13 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:59 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:04 pm

There comes a point, after the student loans are canceled, the stimulus checks stop, and the credit cards are maxed out, that the money runs out and that the productive members of society get tired of being shit on and simply refuse to pull the wagon. At that point, the do-nothings are going to have a rude awakening. I really can't see it any other way.


What does this look like? How does Atlas shrug in this day and age?

As we deal w/ supply chain shortages, perhaps it is already underway.



I had a successful business. I got tired of being vilified for being successful, especially given the amount of taxes I was paying. Got a new idea to give people free stuff? Mandate that businesses do it. Etc. No one ever thanks business for driving the economy by employing people and meeting needs. But if it’s cops or teachers, man, they walk on water.

It finally got to me when I realized I could sell it and walk away in my 40s. At the time I had just read Atlas, and HB’s Freedom book. So screw it, I sold it all, and invested in muni bonds and tax efficient stock funds. Some years we paid zero federal tax. That’s why and how I shrugged.

And why Liz Warren would hate me. :)

Not as dramatic as in the novel, but it’s still a way of withdrawing my financial support for a system that treated me like crap.


I'm constantly noting how in my local newspaper most of the articles seem to be about government and the people in government. On a relative basis the articles on business achievers are few.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Kbg » Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:52 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:28 pm
Kbg wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:54 pm
But you said that Trump’s Deep State team (with nobody on it, apparently) was now 0-2. Based on your link, that would refer to the Durham investigation. Were you referring to something else? Because I’m not sure Durham or Barr were on Trump’s team at all. It’s possible that they were more concerned with protecting the FBI. Barr was the bondo and Durham was the spray paint, as some say.

Do you think we’re on a path to holding individuals in the FBI accountable? Are they the right individuals?
No the investigation. I think it was a good investigation to start to clear the air, but the fact is criminally nothing is sticking when a jury gets to hear the evidence. Invoke cliché...smoke but no fire. I think Barr was like many other officials who stepped away from Trump Bar when he started going full on whack-a-doo after he lost the election.

IIRC the two senior agents who let their politics (democratic) get in the way of their professional responsibilities and ethics were both forced to retire/resign

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/doj-off ... d=73611918

https://apnews.com/article/election-202 ... 70d66cefec

By take on Barr is A) that he's a classic conservative and B) he's got some integrity.

Trump does not give loyalty nor does he retain it amongst people who walk in the circles of power...to me that says a lot about the man as a person. In 2016 my take on him was that he was a sleazebag and he's done nothing to change that opinion. (Personal bias made public. :) )
This is not necessarily a D vs R thing, that's a distraction. If Jeb! had won in 2016 we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because Jeb! is a member of The Club and is willing to "play ball". The FBI would not have spied on his campaign or promoted a hoax in an attempt to cover their butts and destroy his presidency.

It's absurd to suggest that Ohr and Clinesmith represent the full extent of the malfeasance at the FBI/DOJ. You appear to be either very poorly informed on this topic or deliberately attempting to downplay the situation.

There's smoke but no fire because investigators weren't really investigating, they were misdirecting and slow-walking the entire process to run out the clock, prevent the release of damaging information, and create false narratives to make the FBI look like victims (hence the Danchenko charge and the fact that Durham never targeted anyone inside the DOJ).

Barr is a Club member and chose to protect the FBI/DOJ rather than allow it to be exposed. All of that started well before the 2020 election. Right now he's creating more smoke by acknowledging that there was abuse at the FBI and saying that Durham's final report will lay out all the facts, but what are the chances that anyone at or near the top is ever held accountable? Permanent Washington always protects itself.

Even if for the sake of argument we establish that Trump is a sleazebag, it doesn't justify an attempt to oust a sitting President or the continued resistance to transparency. The ends don't justify the means. We should expect and demand much better from our government officials.
Short reply...it is not a great revelation that Ds and Rs hate each other at the expense of us all. I've really very little doubt that if one side actually does wrong, legally or criminally, the other side will be prosecuting for all they are worth. When a jury convicts there was something highly likely "there." The rest is political bloviation.

On your last paragraph...completely agree. The problem with the collective "us" is that we only expect and demand from the other side while giving our side a complete pass. It's disgusting and if it continues at the current pace we've got serious trouble coming. From where I sit I see little difference between the far left and the far right.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:41 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:46 pm


I'm constantly noting how in my local newspaper most of the articles seem to be about government and the people in government. On a relative basis the articles on business achievers are few.
Hah, I wrote to a newspaper editor one time and pointed out the same thing. The whole paper was always about teachers, principals, cops and firemen. I told him that from reading his paper, one would get the impression that the whole world revolved around government. He seemed genuinely surprised. I think I noticed more variety after that.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by jalanlong » Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:03 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:41 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:46 pm


I'm constantly noting how in my local newspaper most of the articles seem to be about government and the people in government. On a relative basis the articles on business achievers are few.
Hah, I wrote to a newspaper editor one time and pointed out the same thing. The whole paper was always about teachers, principals, cops and firemen. I told him that from reading his paper, one would get the impression that the whole world revolved around government. He seemed genuinely surprised. I think I noticed more variety after that.
I stopped watching local newscasts but when I did I noticed a similar thing. I noticed that every night there were multiple stories about giving away "free" school supplies or food etc. to "the community" but never, ever a story about a high achieving individual making something of themselves and becoming wildly successful and how that betters everyone around them. The stories always focused on assistance to "the community" , usually by means of giving them things that they line up for.
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:56 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:41 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:46 pm



I'm constantly noting how in my local newspaper most of the articles seem to be about government and the people in government. On a relative basis the articles on business achievers are few.


Hah, I wrote to a newspaper editor one time and pointed out the same thing. The whole paper was always about teachers, principals, cops and firemen. I told him that from reading his paper, one would get the impression that the whole world revolved around government. He seemed genuinely surprised. I think I noticed more variety after that.


Good description of my local newspaper.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Kbg
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Re: The Fourth Branch of Government

Post by Kbg » Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:31 am

'Anger on their minds': NBC News poll finds sky-high interest and polarization ahead of midterms
80% of Democrats and Republicans believe the political opposition poses a threat that, if not stopped, will destroy America as we know it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/ ... +Action%3F

Sounds about right...good for advertisers though. I think I've learned over time that people who are super partisan have other problems in their life and are definitely people I wouldn't want to hang out with.

kbg
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