Why did Pelosi cross the road?

[Jack Jones]

Seriously, what was she thinking? These idiots are in power for two years and now we're at war with two superpowers simultaneously.

[joypog]

Yeah, I'm conflicted on this one.

What I do know is that if Kevin McCarthy did this, the Dems would be all up in arms...as would have been the GOP if Pelosi did this a three years ago.

I dig supporting Taiwan and clearly this means something given the CCP's reaction, but is this any more substantive than changing my profile pic to a ROC flag jpg?

[glennds]

I always try to remind myself that I don't have access to enough information to truly know what went on behind the scenes.
But this is one incident where I would bet the more you know the worse the story would be.

Maybe it's better to not know. Like what if the only reason she went was to meet with the head of TSMC for inside info in advance of her next stock purchase?

[Dieter]

Yeah, this is a strange one (and I'm a left leaning independent!)

China has been pushing things, and IMO, their response is overdoing it.

But still, don't seem the time (not that I know anything behind the scenes)

[glennds]

What I do know is that if Kevin McCarthy did this, the Dems would be all up in arms...as would have been the GOP if Pelosi did this a three years ago.

That probably would have been better for Biden.
In the mid 90's (1994 I think), Newt Gingrich in his eternal wisdom, decided to make a trip to Taiwan while he was Speaker of the House. The Chinese didn't appreciate it, but Clinton was able to distance the White House from it because Gingrich was from the opposing party. It helped that Gingrich already had a legendary reputation for being uncooperative so it was easy to convince the Chinese that his actions were not a reflection on the White House.

Around the same time, I remember an incident where the leader of Taiwan made a trip to South America and his plane stopped for refueling in Hawaii. In order to appease the Chinese, the US refused to issue him a visa so his plane remained on the tarmac and he technically didn't enter the US. The State dept offered to give him a reception in a transit lounge, but he was so offended by that point, he just stayed in the airplane.

[joypog]

That said, I sympathize with Gingrich and Pelosi. As leaders of a separate branch of government, they shouldn't have to kowtow to the president.

On the other hand, if foreign relations isn't a primary part of their job, they should stay in their lane.

As an employee at my state, you can dial a 5 digit number to any other agency...except the Legislature's office. They aren't connected. I presume the same for Judiciary but I haven't worked with them yet.

[boglerdude]

How is Taiwan not already Chinese, what is different about living on the island vs mainland. Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, North Korea have enslaved their populations via "covid" and Canada is next.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/06/china/sa ... index.html
https://old.reddit.com/r/ChurchOfCOVID/ ... w/beijing/

[joypog]

How is Taiwan not already Chinese, what is different about living on the island vs mainland. Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, North Korea have enslaved their populations via "covid" and Canada is next.

If you think COVID protocols (on their own) are equivalent to communism, then your political bearings are completely unmoored.

[barrett]

Ray Dalio just sent me his take on current US-China relations:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-china ... 00QQ%3D%3D

[Kbg]

How is Taiwan not already Chinese, what is different about living on the island vs mainland. Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, North Korea have enslaved their populations via "covid" and Canada is next.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/06/china/sa ... index.html
https://old.reddit.com/r/ChurchOfCOVID/ ... w/beijing/

Have you ever lived or been to a place that actually is substantively not free...little lone the ones you listed? Let me help you out here

South Korea = Free, North Korea != Free
Taiwan = Free, Hong Kong rapidly becoming unfree, China != Free

You make yourself look silly when you post stuff like this. I recommend traveling to an actually not free country sometime then you might know the difference. Free does not mean unfettered to do anything you feel like...it means politically free.

[joypog]

How is Taiwan not already Chinese, what is different about living on the island vs mainland. Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, North Korea have enslaved their populations via "covid" and Canada is next.

If you think COVID protocols (on their own) are equivalent to communism, then your political bearings are completely unmoored.

He never used the word communism, you are putting words in his mouth. Fascism would be more accurate anyway.

My apologies. I should have taken him more literally, which would only heighten the ridiculousness of his statement.

Communism/Facism is bad, enslavement is worse. The COVID restrictions in the PRC at their worst was mass imprisonment, not slavery.

Pick one: an African in the ante-bellum South, a resident in Shanghai this spring (or Franco's Spain), or a citizen of a democratic island nation state.

[Dieter]

Or forced birth

[joypog]

My apologies. I should have taken him more literally, which would only heighten the ridiculousness of his statement.

Communism/Facism is bad, enslavement is worse. The COVID restrictions in the PRC at their worst was mass imprisonment, not slavery.

Pick one: an African in the ante-bellum South, a resident in Shanghai this spring (or Franco's Spain), or a citizen of a democratic island nation state.

How about Australia last year, particularly Victoria? Another example of democracy KBG? When they imprison mothers of small children that post on Facebook against the government narrative, that's fascism in my book.

Democracies can certainly be idiotic. I suspect that Ante-Bellum south was much less communistic/fascistic than the CCP but still sucked to be "enslaved" in that Democracy. I doubt it was a cakewalk for Athenian slaves either.

As for Australia, I haven't heard that story. Please post a link.

[Mark Leavy]

As for Australia, I haven't heard that story. Please post a link.

Hal, one of the Australian posters on this forum, provided frequent real time updates and links to the local news coverage during the entire lock down period. This was his most recent post on that subject.

Excerpt from Jim Rickards newsletter re "The Great Leader"

Nowhere was the fascist impulse more on display than in the state of Victoria in Australia, particularly its main city of Melbourne. Innocent citizens were arrested just for driving in cars alone. Civilians were scooped up off the street by police just for walking outside. Demonstrators against vax mandates were beaten and arrested. That’s the legacy of COVID in Victoria.

Can things get worse than this? According to this article, the answer is yes. It seems that while authorities in Victoria were terrorising their own citizens with lockdowns, they were learning new techniques for total surveillance of those citizens. Now that the pandemic has abated, the surveillance techniques are still in use. These include tracking spending habits, physical whereabouts, social media posts, and medical records involving both physical and mental health.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ecret.html

Any insights as to how this monitoring is carried out?

[joypog]

She was trying to incite a gathering during a pandemic, which was apparently against the law in her jurisdiction at that time.

Not sure what bill of rights the Australians got, but it seems that whatever they got doesn't cover this. Just an another overbearing democratic nanny-state that one may or may not choose to live in.

Might be time for them to amend their laws...or move. Try doing either of that in North Korea.

Still nowhere close to enslavement or fascism.

[boglerdude]

Yes and the point is the line gets drawn here, at covid burqas on healthy people, annual injections at gunpoint and government permission to leave your house.
Canada would have continued devolving if not for the Truckers.

> Or forced birth

There'd be a tax-payer funded abortion clinic in every 711, if I had my druthers

edit1: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/c ... r-AA10lCX4

[joypog]

None of this is happening in democracies outside of your doomerist fantasies, especially two years after the initial shutdowns.

Even the PRC isn't forcing people to vaccinate - their relatively low vax rate among old folks is one of their big weakness in their zero-COVID policy. And those guys freely do things at gunpoint when it suits them.

I should stop raining on your apocalyptic authoritarian parade. Enjoy the imprisonment of your own imagination.

[glennds]

How about Australia last year, particularly Victoria? Another example of democracy KBG? When they imprison mothers of small children that post on Facebook against the government narrative, that's fascism in my book.

Not to add fuel to this fire, but it does seem like something is wrong in Australia. This happened only last week:

There are a lot of reasons why you don't want to forget a pair of McDonald's Egg and Sausage McMuffins at the bottom of your backpack — but the possibility of a four-figure government fine has to be near the top of the list. An as-yet-unidentified air traveler was hit with an AUD​​$2,664 ($1,846) "infringement notice" after a Darwin airport sniffer dog detected his leftover McMeal when he flew from Bali, Indonesia to the northern Australian city.

According to a release from Murray Watt, Australia's newly sworn-in Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, the traveler was also carrying a ham croissant. His entire breakfast was deemed to be an undeclared biosecurity risk; after being confiscated, the items were going to be tested for foot and mouth disease (FMD) before being destroyed.

https://www.foodandwine.com/news/austra ... uffin-fine

[joypog]

She was trying to incite a gathering during a pandemic, which was apparently against the law in her jurisdiction at that time.

Not sure what bill of rights the Australians got, but it seems that whatever they got doesn't cover this. Just an another overbearing democratic nanny-state that one may or may not choose to live in.

Might be time for them to amend their laws...or move. Try doing either of that in North Korea.

Still nowhere close to enslavement or fascism.

That was one incident out of many. There was another where a woman posted anti-lockdown comments on FB and they came to her house and arrested her. In any case, it's not freedom. Freedom of speech should be the #1 indicator of a free society.

If the woman was merely disagreeing with the government's policy I would agree with your position. However your article says she was fomenting a mass in-person protest in the midst of a pandemic. That could be seen as similar to yelling fire in a theater.

However, this brings us back to Bolgerdude's ridiculous equivalence between Taiwan and the PRC which started this tangent. One of them has freedom of speech, the other doesn't.

[yankees60]

She was trying to incite a gathering during a pandemic, which was apparently against the law in her jurisdiction at that time.

Not sure what bill of rights the Australians got, but it seems that whatever they got doesn't cover this. Just an another overbearing democratic nanny-state that one may or may not choose to live in.

Might be time for them to amend their laws...or move. Try doing either of that in North Korea.

Still nowhere close to enslavement or fascism.

That was one incident out of many. There was another where a woman posted anti-lockdown comments on FB and they came to her house and arrested her. In any case, it's not freedom. Freedom of speech should be the #1 indicator of a free society.

If the woman was merely disagreeing with the government's policy I would agree with your position. However your article says she was fomenting a mass in-person protest in the midst of a pandemic. That could be seen as similar to yelling fire in a theater.

However, this brings us back to Bolgerdude's ridiculous equivalence between Taiwan and the PRC which started this tangent. One of them has freedom of speech, the other doesn't.

Let's also keep in mind that for many people "freedom of speech" seems to encompass having no consequences for saying what they say.

I believe it means that you have "freedom of speech" free from government consequences, but you are not free from the consequences of how your employer, friends, anyone else react to what you have said.

[Kbg]

How is Taiwan not already Chinese, what is different about living on the island vs mainland. Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, North Korea have enslaved their populations via "covid" and Canada is next.

If you think COVID protocols (on their own) are equivalent to communism, then your political bearings are completely unmoored.

He never used the word communism, you are putting words in his mouth. Fascism would be more accurate anyway.

You make yourself look silly when you post stuff like this. I recommend traveling to an actually not free country sometime then you might know the difference. Free does not mean unfettered to do anything you feel like...it means politically free.

I think you make yourself look silly if you can't see that what Canada (Trudeau and his group) have done in the last 2 years is not moving the country toward non-democracy if not outright fascism. Feel free to do your own research on the political lack of freedom going on there.

Oh my apologies...enslaved vs. communist. I stand duly corrected.

Apparently the people who measure this for a living disagree.

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/free ... d%20Status

Sort on total score and status and see where Canada ends up in the sort.

And, double bonus (you usually see things like this from reputable organizations)...they disclose their methodology.

https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedo ... ethodology

When Trudeau's party is no longer in the parliamentary majority and if he's still the PM open this thread back up and I'll do a big I was wrong in large caps, big font and bolded. I'll even throw in a symbolic groveling meme.

[Kbg]

How about Australia last year, particularly Victoria? Another example of democracy KBG? When they imprison mothers of small children that post on Facebook against the government narrative, that's fascism in my book.

Not to add fuel to this fire, but it does seem like something is wrong in Australia. This happened only last week:

There are a lot of reasons why you don't want to forget a pair of McDonald's Egg and Sausage McMuffins at the bottom of your backpack — but the possibility of a four-figure government fine has to be near the top of the list. An as-yet-unidentified air traveler was hit with an AUD​​$2,664 ($1,846) "infringement notice" after a Darwin airport sniffer dog detected his leftover McMeal when he flew from Bali, Indonesia to the northern Australian city.

According to a release from Murray Watt, Australia's newly sworn-in Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, the traveler was also carrying a ham croissant. His entire breakfast was deemed to be an undeclared biosecurity risk; after being confiscated, the items were going to be tested for foot and mouth disease (FMD) before being destroyed.

https://www.foodandwine.com/news/austra ... uffin-fine

Sorry, inquiring minds want to know...have either of you ever actually traveled overseas? Is this surprising to you? You are aware that if you basically travel to any 1st world country on the planet with meat from another country you could get fined or worse, right?

If you haven't, here's how it works at an international airport...

Fill out customs declaration before landing

- 90% of the time, It varies by country...but read something like this...bringing agricultural goods into country X is prohibited and subject to a # in local currency fine and/or X days/months in jail. OBTW...do you work on a farm or in the agricultural industry? Details please. (IIRC it's like $10K and 6mos in jail for the US)

Get off airplane

Show passport (get your face scanned biometrically or get back on an airplane)

Get question that goes something like this: Do you have any money, goods or ag products to declare?

Make declaration

Get luggage searched or not.

Sometimes watch people be surrounded by customs officials and/or airport cops because their declaration wasn't accurate...as you think while walking by, sucks to be you.

Travel tip: Eat all your foreign food on the airplane or leave it there.

[glennds]

Sorry, inquiring minds want to know...have either of you ever actually traveled overseas? Is this surprising to you? You are aware that if you basically travel to any 1st world country on the planet with meat from another country you could get fined or worse, right?

Pug and I are taking incoming. And getting Kbg travel tips!

Short answer - yes, I have traveled overseas, more than once.
And yes it is surprising to me.
A McDonald's Egg McMuffin sandwich constituting meat importation is an unusually strict application of the rules and procedures you so patiently outlined. Same for a ham croissant sandwich.
Uncooked meat and produce, that's a different story.

Honestly Kbg, this story was noteworthy enough to end up getting a fair amount of attention. See for yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=austral ... e&ie=UTF-8

Not just sensationalist news media either. Several of the hits are from travel publications carrying the story more as a traveler advisory.
But hey, I can respect that it's a nothingburger to you (see what I did there? ).

Q for you - what if it was one of those Impossible breakfast sandwiches like Starbucks sells? The ones made with no-meat meat? Since they're designed to look, taste and smell like meat, I'm sure the sniffer dog would pick it up. If the Aussies fined the traveler with one of those, would it be over the top?

[Kbg]

Pug and glennds...good poke backs and I always enjoy humorous poke backs even if I'm the target.

A couple of thoughts...

If you are the law enforcement officer your job is to enforce the law not interpret it. That's what we have judges for who then apply common sense, special circumstances or whatever to toss, downgrade or upgrade the penalty. That's the theory anyway it's best when the system functions that way over the long haul. Of course, officers and judges are people and they have good and bad days and are inconsistent. Sometimes you get the traffic warning, sometimes you get the $250 speeding ticket. Apparently, this person got the ag inspector who was having a bad day.

Me personally...I'm uber cautious on this stuff.

True story, I spent time in a foreign airport's holding cell in my late 20s because an airline customer service rep took me past customs to fix a follow on flight. When I went back to get an entry stamp...off to the holding cell for about 4 hours. I got good cop bad cop and the whole 9 yards. How I finally got out of the holding cell is an even better story that unfortunately I can't regale you with...and I got to (eventually) leave the country because a different customs person decided to be nice.

Travel Tip #2: one cranky (or nice) customs officer can ruin/make your whole day. :-)

[boglerdude]

Only two weeks ago thousands of people had to pressure the masked-on-zoom-calls health director to scrap the plan to require muzzles again. Because the docs revealed that no one was dying from covid. (And lets not memory-hole the fact that hospitals were not more overloaded than previous years)
https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusCir ... _accurate/

California's two week two and a half year state of emergency continues

https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/com ... landlords/
Even redditors are waking up