Inflation Reduction Act

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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:39 pm

Funny. I come from the exact opposite direction. I was a dittohead growing up, and while I have some lingering sympathises for the silicon valley libertarianism of my youth, I absolutely despise the current incarnation of the GOP with its authoritarian tendencies.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by boglerdude » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:52 pm

well as we've been discussing, the use of martial law forced leftists like myself "far right"

That said I hope Trump is arrested, both because he's a bad person and because it would terrible if the FBI just abused its power.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by flyingpylon » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:57 pm

Things might make more sense if people shed the false dichotomy of D vs R and reframe it as establishment vs non-establishment (or regime vs non-regime, elites vs non-elites, etc. as you prefer). D and R are just two wings of the same bird.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 am

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8899&p=242394#p242382

joypog,

You posted a few thoughts on the Renewable Energy thread beginning with the above link that I thought were outstanding and could be modified to explain why we got the likes of Trump and Biden and many, many others. I excerpted your comments below and added my thoughts in [brackets].

1. I think the vendors [politicians] are used to handwaving in front of semi-innumerate homeowners [potential voters] that just go "okay, whatever [said politician says] lowers my [the potential voter] monthly bills [or allows me to feel good about my incredible self-righteousness and enable me to virtue signal]."

2. If you haven't noticed, I have much disdain for sales reps [politicians] in the architectural [political] industry, they promise the moon, especially if you aren't paying attention. You are absolutely doing the right thing making them earn the sale.

3. As a one-off customer, odds are high that the level of service will drop considerably as soon as you sign the dotted line [vote them into office] and that there will be some teeth pulling to get the job done right. I learned that the hard way with my own house remodel [life's experiences] and the subcontractors I worked with - they all talk a big game until the contracts are signed [election is approved].

4. As such, you really need to make sure the end goal is one absolutely worth pursuing [amen, preach it!].

FWIW, I don't consider myself a liberal, conservative, Democrat, or Republican when it comes to politics. I just try to understand the issues, decide what is a best fit for my values and what I think will be best for the future of my family and the country, consider the long and short term ramifications of the various issues, and vote accordingly. The longer I live, the shorter the list of acceptable candidates seems to get. In other words, crap runs downhill and on this earth we are getting closer and closer to the bottom. ;)

... Mountaineer
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Jack Jones » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:57 pm
Things might make more sense if people shed the false dichotomy of D vs R and reframe it as establishment vs non-establishment (or regime vs non-regime, elites vs non-elites, etc. as you prefer). D and R are just two wings of the same bird.
I totally agree. However, I've noticed the R's are currently branding themselves as the anti-establishment party. I find it amusing, but it also seems to have been effective.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by flyingpylon » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:41 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:57 pm
Things might make more sense if people shed the false dichotomy of D vs R and reframe it as establishment vs non-establishment (or regime vs non-regime, elites vs non-elites, etc. as you prefer). D and R are just two wings of the same bird.
I totally agree. However, I've noticed the R's are currently branding themselves as the anti-establishment party. I find it amusing, but it also seems to have been effective.
Well, that seems to be the internal battle the party is having these days. Many of them are clearly part of the establishment, and a growing number are not. We'll see how it plays out.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:49 am

Hahahah! That's epic. Good stuff!

I think my innate cynicism is what keeps me becoming a full utopian progressive even though I lean left.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:52 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 am

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8899&p=242394#p242382

joypog,

You posted a few thoughts on the Renewable Energy thread beginning with the above link that I thought were outstanding and could be modified to explain why we got the likes of Trump and Biden and many, many others. I excerpted your comments below and added my thoughts in [brackets].

1. I think the vendors [politicians] are used to handwaving in front of semi-innumerate homeowners [potential voters] that just go "okay, whatever [said politician says] lowers my [the potential voter] monthly bills [or allows me to feel good about my incredible self-righteousness and enable me to virtue signal]."

2. If you haven't noticed, I have much disdain for sales reps [politicians] in the architectural [political] industry, they promise the moon, especially if you aren't paying attention. You are absolutely doing the right thing making them earn the sale.

3. As a one-off customer, odds are high that the level of service will drop considerably as soon as you sign the dotted line [vote them into office] and that there will be some teeth pulling to get the job done right. I learned that the hard way with my own house remodel [life's experiences] and the subcontractors I worked with - they all talk a big game until the contracts are signed [election is approved].

4. As such, you really need to make sure the end goal is one absolutely worth pursuing [amen, preach it!].

FWIW, I don't consider myself a liberal, conservative, Democrat, or Republican when it comes to politics. I just try to understand the issues, decide what is a best fit for my values and what I think will be best for the future of my family and the country, consider the long and short term ramifications of the various issues, and vote accordingly. The longer I live, the shorter the list of acceptable candidates seems to get. In other words, crap runs downhill and on this earth we are getting closer and closer to the bottom. ;)

... Mountaineer


Somewhat goes along with what you assert in the above...

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... le/265843/

The Least-Trusted Jobs in America: Congress Members and Car Salespeople

Though the article is from ten years ago....rankings probably have not changed?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by glennds » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:19 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:57 pm
Things might make more sense if people shed the false dichotomy of D vs R and reframe it as establishment vs non-establishment (or regime vs non-regime, elites vs non-elites, etc. as you prefer). D and R are just two wings of the same bird.
I'd be surprised if there is anyone left who truly believes either party, D or R, are still in service to their constituents.

Both parties crossed a Rubicon like unions who started out as member representatives, but eventually became primarily invested in themselves and their insiders.
The members (constituents) eventually become just a means to this end. The ever changing ideologies they both trumpet are basically a form of marketing and the media is an extension of the marketing department.
Most of us are resigned to picking the one we hate less in an environment replete with deception and misinformation. A modern day Tower of Babel.

Thanks to Citizens United, I would say both parties are more in service to their major donors than voters, maybe R more than D in this respect, but both do it.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:30 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:19 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:57 pm

Things might make more sense if people shed the false dichotomy of D vs R and reframe it as establishment vs non-establishment (or regime vs non-regime, elites vs non-elites, etc. as you prefer). D and R are just two wings of the same bird.


I'd be surprised if there is anyone left who truly believes either party, D or R, are still in service to their constituents.

Both parties crossed a Rubicon like unions who started out as member representatives, but eventually became primarily invested in themselves and their insiders.
The members (constituents) eventually become just a means to this end. The ever changing ideologies they both trumpet are basically a form of marketing and the media is an extension of the marketing department.
Most of us are resigned to picking the one we hate less in an environment replete with deception and misinformation. A modern day Tower of Babel.

Thanks to Citizens United, I would say both parties are more in service to their major donors than voters, maybe R more than D in this respect, but both do it.


Goes along with what I read in a Peter Drucker book over 40 years ago.

A union's first priority is NOT to serve it's union members. Its first priority is to always insure its survival. All else is secondary to that.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by flyingpylon » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:44 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:19 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:57 pm
Things might make more sense if people shed the false dichotomy of D vs R and reframe it as establishment vs non-establishment (or regime vs non-regime, elites vs non-elites, etc. as you prefer). D and R are just two wings of the same bird.
I'd be surprised if there is anyone left who truly believes either party, D or R, are still in service to their constituents.

Both parties crossed a Rubicon like unions who started out as member representatives, but eventually became primarily invested in themselves and their insiders.
The members (constituents) eventually become just a means to this end. The ever changing ideologies they both trumpet are basically a form of marketing and the media is an extension of the marketing department.
Most of us are resigned to picking the one we hate less in an environment replete with deception and misinformation. A modern day Tower of Babel.

Thanks to Citizens United, I would say both parties are more in service to their major donors than voters, maybe R more than D in this respect, but both do it.
I agree that our government no longer serves its people. It's basically an abusive relationship that we're in. I'm never sure whether it's always been that way and I didn't realize it, or if it didn't used to be that way and things have changed.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:02 pm

For the record, I rarely consume any right wing media.
I consume left wing media and LOLOL a lot.

I’ve made no effort to learn about this bill other than headline osmosis. I feel confident that it’s mostly bad.

We might be causing warming. Nobody has a workable answer other than kill a lot of people and cows. Teslas create more warming than they prevent. More net than an IC car for the first 400,000 miles. A carbon tax makes more sense, although it would hurt little people. I’m not anti EV or solar panels. Love them both, the latter more so.

Inflation reduction bill. That’s so laughable that I couldn’t take it seriously anyway. Come on! Inflation reduction through… tax increases and enforcement? What? Through alternative energy development? Okay there’s something about price controls on drugs, right? That’s not significant in the inflation picture for most people.

Whatever. Good luck with this though.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:21 pm

Tax increases remove the supply of money from the economy, so that would tend to reduce inflation.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:47 pm

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:26 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:21 pm
Tax increases remove the supply of money from the economy, so that would tend to reduce inflation.
That's true.
IIRC, wasn't there a slight deflation scare with the Clinton budget surpluses? Good to know that we took care of that problem right fast!
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:51 pm

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:24 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:02 pm
For the record, I rarely consume any right wing media.
I consume left wing media and LOLOL a lot.

I’ve made no effort to learn about this bill other than headline osmosis. I feel confident that it’s mostly bad.

We might be causing warming. Nobody has a workable answer other than kill a lot of people and cows. Teslas create more warming than they prevent. More net than an IC car for the first 400,000 miles. A carbon tax makes more sense, although it would hurt little people. I’m not anti EV or solar panels. Love them both, the latter more so.

Inflation reduction bill. That’s so laughable that I couldn’t take it seriously anyway. Come on! Inflation reduction through… tax increases and enforcement? What? Through alternative energy development? Okay there’s something about price controls on drugs, right? That’s not significant in the inflation picture for most people.

Whatever. Good luck with this though.
I work in the field of alternative energy, so I've studied climate change, carbon emissions and such for more than 2 decades. People knowledgable on the topic are pretty happy with the bill. Every bill contains some garbage, because that's what our current political system requires for passage (unfortunately). But from a climate change standpoint, this looks like a very positive bill.

And I'm not sure where you got your 400,000 miles figure from.

Argonne NL says 13,500 miles.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 021-06-29/

Probably from the counterpoint mentioned in that article. At least I assume so. I don’t catalog my reading, viewing, and thoughts. 🤓

They say he’s revised the number downward.

Some are less positive about EVs.

University of Liege researcher Damien Ernst said in 2019 that the typical EV would have to travel nearly 700,000 km before it emitted less CO2 than a comparable gasoline vehicle. He later revised his figures down.

Now, he estimates the break-even point could be between 67,000 km and 151,000 km. Ernst told Reuters he did not plan to change those findings, which were based on a different set of data and assumptions than in Argonne's model.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:21 pm
Tax increases remove the supply of money from the economy, so that would tend to reduce inflation.
It doesn’t strike me as a good way to go about it.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:07 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:21 pm
Tax increases remove the supply of money from the economy, so that would tend to reduce inflation.
It doesn’t strike me as a good way to go about it.
We could also just inflate away our debt and avoid raising taxes....
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:08 pm

joypog wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:07 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:21 pm
Tax increases remove the supply of money from the economy, so that would tend to reduce inflation.
It doesn’t strike me as a good way to go about it.
We could also just inflate away our debt and avoid raising taxes....
Now you sound like a republican.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:13 pm

How about manage the money supply to protect the value of money, AND let supply and demand determine the interest rates?

I know, it’s crazy talk. I’ll see myself out.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:16 pm

Vinny’s solar thread illustrates how these subsidies go to well-off people. Nothing personal, Vinny.
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:17 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:08 pm
joypog wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:07 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:21 pm
Tax increases remove the supply of money from the economy, so that would tend to reduce inflation.
It doesn’t strike me as a good way to go about it.
We could also just inflate away our debt and avoid raising taxes....
Now you sound like a republican.
Nah to be a proper R, I'd say that inflating away our debt lets us CUT taxes! O0
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:00 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:52 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 am
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8899&p=242394#p242382

joypog,

You posted a few thoughts on the Renewable Energy thread beginning with the above link that I thought were outstanding and could be modified to explain why we got the likes of Trump and Biden and many, many others. I excerpted your comments below and added my thoughts in [brackets].

1. I think the vendors [politicians] are used to handwaving in front of semi-innumerate homeowners [potential voters] that just go "okay, whatever [said politician says] lowers my [the potential voter] monthly bills [or allows me to feel good about my incredible self-righteousness and enable me to virtue signal]."

2. If you haven't noticed, I have much disdain for sales reps [politicians] in the architectural [political] industry, they promise the moon, especially if you aren't paying attention. You are absolutely doing the right thing making them earn the sale.

3. As a one-off customer, odds are high that the level of service will drop considerably as soon as you sign the dotted line [vote them into office] and that there will be some teeth pulling to get the job done right. I learned that the hard way with my own house remodel [life's experiences] and the subcontractors I worked with - they all talk a big game until the contracts are signed [election is approved].

4. As such, you really need to make sure the end goal is one absolutely worth pursuing [amen, preach it!].

FWIW, I don't consider myself a liberal, conservative, Democrat, or Republican when it comes to politics. I just try to understand the issues, decide what is a best fit for my values and what I think will be best for the future of my family and the country, consider the long and short term ramifications of the various issues, and vote accordingly. The longer I live, the shorter the list of acceptable candidates seems to get. In other words, crap runs downhill and on this earth we are getting closer and closer to the bottom. ;)

... Mountaineer
Somewhat goes along with what you assert in the above...

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... le/265843/

The Least-Trusted Jobs in America: Congress Members and Car Salespeople

Though the article is from ten years ago....rankings probably have not changed?
Interesting list and looks reasonably the same now but I'd put the car salespeople above the politicians. Interesting how 10 years ago more than half of people thought politicians were not to be trusted. And yet, we still vote the slease bags into office. Shame on us! Or as Soros might say "you get what you pay for". ;)
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:04 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:16 pm

Vinny’s solar thread illustrates how these subsidies go to well-off people. Nothing personal, Vinny.


None taken.

It just reinforces the saying: "The rich get richer."

However, people with equal abilities / potentials through their own choices can end up in two different places. One well-off, one not.

I think I'm correctly remembering that you were a successful business owner who sold it? If so, then I think you well know what I mean.

Being a successful business owner requires a lot of sacrifice. A degree of sacrifice that most people are not willing to make yet they believe those who did sacrifice much need to pay more than their fair shares of taxes.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:06 pm

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:28 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:51 pm

Probably from the counterpoint mentioned in that article. At least I assume so. I don’t catalog my reading, viewing, and thoughts. 🤓

They say he’s revised the number downward.


Gotcha. Vinny can help you with the cataloging of data. :)

Of course the eventual goal of EV's goes along with continued replacement of fossil powered electric plants with nuke and solar/wind. As that fraction increases, the EV's will get greener. And finally, EV's can be much more efficient than Teslas.


Probably not! I'm similar to I Shrugged in that I cannot always cite the evidence for why I believe something but I do know it did get embedded from somewhere that at the time was convincing to me.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Inflation Reduction Act

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:10 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:00 pm



Interesting list and looks reasonably the same now but I'd put the car salespeople above the politicians. Interesting how 10 years ago more than half of people thought politicians were not to be trusted. And yet, we still vote the slease bags into office. Shame on us! Or as Soros might say "you get what you pay for". ;)


Many times that I have read that is not our OWN politicians that we distrust. It is ALL those other ones who do not represent us that we do not trust. All of ours bring us so much to us so that we want them to keep bringing those things to us.

Just about every politician wins based upon what they are going to give you. Hardly ever win by telling us what they are going to take away from us (which would then lead to lower taxes). You agree the greater share of the populace wants things given to them with someone else paying for those things?
Last edited by vnatale on Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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