What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:13 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:17 pm
However, I do think some of the crowd just got caught up in the moment and afterwards realized they made a huge mistake ....
Lots of research on herd mentality, mob mentality, pack mentality.
A emotionally charged situation can cause us human beings to completely suspend individual rational thinking. At that point we cede individuality over to a collective, like being part of an insect colony. It can happen surprisingly easily.

History shows us how a charismatic dictator can effectively harness this power, even when dealing with an educated first world population.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:08 pm

glennds wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:13 pm
Kbg wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:17 pm
However, I do think some of the crowd just got caught up in the moment and afterwards realized they made a huge mistake ....
Lots of research on herd mentality, mob mentality, pack mentality.
A emotionally charged situation can cause us human beings to completely suspend individual rational thinking. At that point we cede individuality over to a collective, like being part of an insect colony. It can happen surprisingly easily.

History shows us how a charismatic dictator can effectively harness this power, even when dealing with an educated first world population.
We see this all the time. Fraternity hazing, for one example. There are countless other examples of a mob mentality taking over. Simple bullying is often like that.

It's really difficult for somebody in such a situation to take a step back, stand up, and say "hey, we need to stop". I hope I'm raising my boys to be able to do that.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:54 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:08 pm
glennds wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:13 pm
Kbg wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:17 pm
However, I do think some of the crowd just got caught up in the moment and afterwards realized they made a huge mistake ....
Lots of research on herd mentality, mob mentality, pack mentality.
A emotionally charged situation can cause us human beings to completely suspend individual rational thinking. At that point we cede individuality over to a collective, like being part of an insect colony. It can happen surprisingly easily.

History shows us how a charismatic dictator can effectively harness this power, even when dealing with an educated first world population.
We see this all the time. Fraternity hazing, for one example. There are countless other examples of a mob mentality taking over. Simple bullying is often like that.

It's really difficult for somebody in such a situation to take a step back, stand up, and say "hey, we need to stop". I hope I'm raising my boys to be able to do that.
With what I said I think I'm being quite generous...there's another side of me that says there isn't a single person who entered that building under the conditions they did that could think in any way shape or form it was legal/ok.

Oh hey, we're just following after the guys who just got done busting cop heads to get in and check the place out before we peacefully head over to Georgetown to hit the clubs.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Jack Jones » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:06 am

joypog wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:31 pm
Unfortuantely, this thread has basically devolved into the typical crud we see everytime one of these shootings happens. The gun maximalists won't budge an inch and the rest of us just need to hope and pray.

I fear it will be a case where things will just keep getting worse and maybe one day a straw will break the camel's back.

Until then, mass shootings are just part of the price we pay for living in America.

I guess a little barbarism is unavoidable in any society.

This is exactly the sentiment that I received from cable news while watching the Uvalde coverage at the airport the day of the shooting. Instead of actually covering the event, they kept showing clips of NRA activities. The intended message was clear: you can thank NRA nuts for these school shootings. It was as if they had no real footage of the event; they just grabbed the tape labeled, “School Shooting Propaganda” and ran it.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Jack Jones » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:15 am

School shootings seem like a relatively minor instance of this larger problem:
Scientific and technological progress might change people’s capabilities or incentives in ways that would destabilize civiliza-
tion. For example, advances in DIY biohacking tools might make it easy for anybody with basic training in biology to kill mil-
lions; novel military technologies could trigger arms races in which whoever strikes first has a decisive advantage; or some
economically advantageous process may be invented that produces disastrous negative global externalities that are hard to
regulate. This paper introduces the concept of a vulnerable world: roughly, one in which there is some level of technological
development at which civilization almost certainly gets devastated by default, i.e. unless it has exited the ‘semi-anarchic
default condition’. Several counterfactual historical and speculative future vulnerabilities are analyzed and arranged into a
typology. A general ability to stabilize a vulnerable world would require greatly amplified capacities for preventive policing
and global governance. The vulnerable world hypothesis thus offers a new perspective from which to evaluate the risk-benefit
balance of developments towards ubiquitous surveillance or a unipolar world order.
Basically, what do we do about a maniac who wants to harm us all? Today, the maniac only has a gun. The technology is only going to get more deadly and complex. There will be unintended consequences of technological development that bring more power to the maniacs. So what do we do about it?

If we can't agree about guns, maybe we can all agree about this instead: total surveillance. ;)

From the same paper:
By the ‘semi-anarchic default condition’ I mean a world
order characterized by three features12 :
1. Limited capacity for preventive policing. States do not have
sufficiently reliable means of real-time surveillance and
interception to make it virtually impossible for any indi-
vidual or small group within their territory to carry out
illegal actions – particularly actions that are very strongly
disfavored by > 99 per cent of the population.
https://nickbostrom.com/papers/vulnerable.pdf
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:50 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:15 am
School shootings seem like a relatively minor instance of this larger problem:
Scientific and technological progress might change people’s capabilities or incentives in ways that would destabilize civiliza-
tion. For example, advances in DIY biohacking tools might make it easy for anybody with basic training in biology to kill mil-
lions;
What are some examples of these DIY biohacking tools that might make it easy to kill millions?
And how does the person get their hands on them?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Jack Jones » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:21 pm

glennds wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:50 am
Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:15 am
School shootings seem like a relatively minor instance of this larger problem:
Scientific and technological progress might change people’s capabilities or incentives in ways that would destabilize civiliza-
tion. For example, advances in DIY biohacking tools might make it easy for anybody with basic training in biology to kill mil-
lions;
What are some examples of these DIY biohacking tools that might make it easy to kill millions?
And how does the person get their hands on them?
Whether the wuhan lab leak theory is true or not, either way it’s a plausible thing that could happen that satisfies your question.

However that is just one example and it doesn’t even involve a maniac. The problem is that the technology will continue to get more complex which will give maniacs a greater capacity for widespread destruction.

It seems there is a fundamental tension between technology and freedom. The more technology a society develops, the more we need to surveil or otherwise restrict the freedom of individuals because one bad apple can spoil the whole game if they are so motivated. I mean who feels great about Putin having nukes? Isn’t it just a matter of time until one of these idiots ruins it for us all?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by joypog » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:50 pm

holy shit...looks like something might get passed through the senate.
The compromise would make the juvenile records of gun buyers under age 21 available when they undergo background checks. The suspects who killed 10 Black people at a grocery store in Buffalo and 19 students and two teachers at an elementary school in Uvalde were both 18, and many perpetrators of recent years’ mass shootings have been young.

The agreement would offer money to states to enact and put in place “red flag” laws that make it easier to temporarily take guns from people considered potentially violent, plus funds to bolster school safety and mental health programs.

Some people who informally sell guns for profit would be required to obtain federal dealers’ licenses, which means they would have to conduct background checks of buyers. Convicted domestic abusers who do not live with a former partner, such as estranged ex-boyfriends, would be barred from buying firearms, and it would be a crime for a person to legally purchase a weapon for someone who would not qualify for ownership.

Congressional aides said billions of dollars would be spent expanding the number of community mental health centers and suicide prevention programs. But they said some spending decisions are unresolved, as are final wording on juvenile records and other gun provisions that might prove contentious.
Devil is in the details...but at least some progress, and seems pretty reasonable.

Happy that the red flag laws are kept at the state level. I'm a good liberal, but from work I can attest it's a pain to work with the feds, so I don't think they should be implementing these programs.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:41 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:21 pm

glennds wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:50 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:15 am

School shootings seem like a relatively minor instance of this larger problem:

Scientific and technological progress might change people’s capabilities or incentives in ways that would destabilize civiliza-
tion. For example, advances in DIY biohacking tools might make it easy for anybody with basic training in biology to kill mil-
lions;





What are some examples of these DIY biohacking tools that might make it easy to kill millions?
And how does the person get their hands on them?


Whether the wuhan lab leak theory is true or not, either way it’s a plausible thing that could happen that satisfies your question.

However that is just one example and it doesn’t even involve a maniac. The problem is that the technology will continue to get more complex which will give maniacs a greater capacity for widespread destruction.

It seems there is a fundamental tension between technology and freedom. The more technology a society develops, the more we need to surveil or otherwise restrict the freedom of individuals because one bad apple can spoil the whole game if they are so motivated. I mean who feels great about Putin having nukes? Isn’t it just a matter of time until one of these idiots ruins it for us all?


I see an exact parallel to the gun violence problem. The more guns a country has and the more freedoms and permissiveness there are surrounding possessing them then the more likely there will be problems caused by a tiny, tiny, tiny proportion of those guns. Extremely simple math and probabilities. Even with a fixed probability the more there of a something absolutely then the more likely it will happen.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:31 am

Zdogg and Vinay Prasad had a great discussion about the gun/shooter situation in about the first half of this video. Highly recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i8cD4j4sQE

It's refreshing to hear somebody say that the real problem is figuring out what potential solutions would actually make a difference, rather than just pointing to guns or lack of guns as the problem. Also Prasad makes a great point (largely the same one I made earlier, so of course I think it's great) that red flag laws will cause millions of people to be flagged only a handful of which would actually become shooters.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:49 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:31 am
Zdogg and Vinay Prasad had a great discussion about the gun/shooter situation in about the first half of this video. Highly recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i8cD4j4sQE

It's refreshing to hear somebody say that the real problem is figuring out what potential solutions would actually make a difference, rather than just pointing to guns or lack of guns as the problem.
Before I put in the time to watch, may I ask - do they propose any solutions or mainly make the distinction between solving the right problem versus solving the wrong problem?
Also Prasad makes a great point (largely the same one I made earlier, so of course I think it's great) that red flag laws will cause millions of people to be flagged only a handful of which would actually become shooters.
This is a valid point. But wouldn't you say our airport security laws flag many, maybe thousands of people, only a small handful of which had nefarious intentions? So should that mean we loosen or eliminate airport security? Or do we accept inconvenience to many in pursuit of safety for a relative few?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:08 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:49 am
Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:31 am
Zdogg and Vinay Prasad had a great discussion about the gun/shooter situation in about the first half of this video. Highly recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i8cD4j4sQE

It's refreshing to hear somebody say that the real problem is figuring out what potential solutions would actually make a difference, rather than just pointing to guns or lack of guns as the problem.
Before I put in the time to watch, may I ask - do they propose any solutions or mainly make the distinction between solving the right problem versus solving the wrong problem?
Also Prasad makes a great point (largely the same one I made earlier, so of course I think it's great) that red flag laws will cause millions of people to be flagged only a handful of which would actually become shooters.
This is a valid point. But wouldn't you say our airport security laws flag many, maybe thousands of people, only a small handful of which had nefarious intentions? So should that mean we loosen or eliminate airport security? Or do we accept inconvenience to many in pursuit of safety for a relative few?

They propose some solutions to finding out what steps might actually help.

I would be in favor of loosening or eliminating airport security, yes.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:22 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:16 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:49 am


This is a valid point. But wouldn't you say our airport security laws flag many, maybe thousands of people, only a small handful of which had nefarious intentions? So should that mean we loosen or eliminate airport security? Or do we accept inconvenience to many in pursuit of safety for a relative few?
If you think the security theater in airports is a good thing and actually serves any purpose other than to give jobs to thousands of unnecessary government employees, I don't know what to say.
I didn't say either of those things. I pointed out a parallel and raised two questions. I think I know your answer to both but I'll stop short of putting words in your mouth.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:35 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:16 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:49 am


This is a valid point. But wouldn't you say our airport security laws flag many, maybe thousands of people, only a small handful of which had nefarious intentions? So should that mean we loosen or eliminate airport security? Or do we accept inconvenience to many in pursuit of safety for a relative few?
If you think the security theater in airports is a good thing and actually serves any purpose other than to give jobs to thousands of unnecessary government employees, I don't know what to say.
Counterpoint: When was the last successful hijacking of an American airliner?

Answer: 9/11/2001

More hijacking trivia

When was the last successful hijacking of an Israeli aircraft?

Answer: 6/27/1976

Hmmm...strict screening, it's annoying, but it works.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:39 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:35 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:16 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:49 am


This is a valid point. But wouldn't you say our airport security laws flag many, maybe thousands of people, only a small handful of which had nefarious intentions? So should that mean we loosen or eliminate airport security? Or do we accept inconvenience to many in pursuit of safety for a relative few?
If you think the security theater in airports is a good thing and actually serves any purpose other than to give jobs to thousands of unnecessary government employees, I don't know what to say.
Counterpoint: When was the last successful hijacking of an American airliner?

Answer: 9/11/2001

More hijacking trivia

When was the last successful hijacking of an Israeli aircraft?

Answer: 6/27/1976

Hmmm...strict screening, it's annoying, but it works.
It's a fair counterpoint, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the screening is what prevented hijacking. For example, the passengers wouldn't put up with an attempted hijack anymore. Before 9/11 they would, because the typical hijacker just wanted to be dropped off somewhere.

Also, if airport screening is such great shakes, maybe we should have to go through a metal detector and scanner and pre-register all our information in order to get on a bus or subway or even on the highway in our cars? Or all public buildings?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:55 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:39 pm
Also, if airport screening is such great shakes, maybe we should have to go through a metal detector and scanner and pre-register all our information in order to get on a bus or subway or even on the highway in our cars? Or all public buildings?
Sure it's not the only thing. Just makes it much more difficult to get weapons onto an aircraft without serious operational planning and an insider threat. On airplanes vs. the subway vs. our cars...wow factor/publicity/cost. It would probably take several city buses blowing up to match a crowded jetliner in terms of news coverage. When's the last time a criminal who hijacked a city bus got any press beyond the local market? Also, not sure what the ratio is but I'm guessing you can buy quite a few new buses for one new 787/AB 350.

The fundamental challenge is the same as the thread topic...cost of protection vs. hassle of protection. Your far extreme on the small side (personal vehicles) is the opposite. Far more Americans are killed in vehicles annually than probably have ever been killed in all the world's aircraft hijackings combined.

Not saying I like it either...my $85 for TSA-Pre is worth every penny. Given the above examples, rational cost/benefit applied? Not at all.

I'm just pointing out that don't like isn't the same as doesn't work.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:11 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:39 pm

It's a fair counterpoint, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the screening is what prevented hijacking. For example, the passengers wouldn't put up with an attempted hijack anymore. Before 9/11 they would, because the typical hijacker just wanted to be dropped off somewhere.

Also, if airport screening is such great shakes, maybe we should have to go through a metal detector and scanner and pre-register all our information in order to get on a bus or subway or even on the highway in our cars? Or all public buildings?
If what we're doing here is taking logical arguments out to the absurd, then why do we impose life safety codes on new buildings? After all only a statistically small number of buildings burn down with an even statistically smaller number of casualties.
So why not do away with the fire sprinklers, separation protections, non-combustibility requirements and other code requirements? All they do is drive up cost and hassle on thousands of buildings that were never going to burn anyway.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:58 pm

That’s kind of what you have to do in the subway in Beijing. They have checkpoints where you have to run your backpack through a TSA-like scanner.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:59 pm

Deep cleansing breaths pug. It'll be ok. If that doesn't work, write one long letter to your congressman, make two copies and send the three to your elected Federal representatives. It could be cathartic.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Jack Jones » Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:44 am

Admittedly, modem man, forced by technique to become in reality and without residue the imaginary producer-consumer of the classical economists, shows disconcertingly little regard for his lost freedom; but, according to Ellul, there are ominous signs that human spontaneity, which in the rational and ordered technical society has no expression except madness, is only too capable of outbreaks of irrational suicidal destructiveness.
Excerpt from The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by joypog » Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:05 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:44 am
Admittedly, modem man, forced by technique to become in reality and without residue the imaginary producer-consumer of the classical economists, shows disconcertingly little regard for his lost freedom; but, according to Ellul, there are ominous signs that human spontaneity, which in the rational and ordered technical society has no expression except madness, is only too capable of outbreaks of irrational suicidal destructiveness.
Excerpt from The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul
Man this makes me nostalgic to re-read some Foucault from grad school. Those frenchies write dense, but they got their charm.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:30 am

joypog wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:05 pm
Jack Jones wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:44 am
Admittedly, modem man, forced by technique to become in reality and without residue the imaginary producer-consumer of the classical economists, shows disconcertingly little regard for his lost freedom; but, according to Ellul, there are ominous signs that human spontaneity, which in the rational and ordered technical society has no expression except madness, is only too capable of outbreaks of irrational suicidal destructiveness.
Excerpt from The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul
Man this makes me nostalgic to re-read some Foucault from grad school. Those frenchies write dense, but they got their charm.
Dude, if you are going to slap Foucault on us...I just gotta ask: What is freedom?

P.S. This is actually a really fun philosophical hole to dive into. Of course all the best philosophy can be found in the Princess Bride movie..."You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by joypog » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:47 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:30 am
joypog wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:05 pm
Jack Jones wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:44 am
Admittedly, modem man, forced by technique to become in reality and without residue the imaginary producer-consumer of the classical economists, shows disconcertingly little regard for his lost freedom; but, according to Ellul, there are ominous signs that human spontaneity, which in the rational and ordered technical society has no expression except madness, is only too capable of outbreaks of irrational suicidal destructiveness.
Excerpt from The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul
Man this makes me nostalgic to re-read some Foucault from grad school. Those frenchies write dense, but they got their charm.
Dude, if you are going to slap Foucault on us...I just gotta ask: What is freedom?
I wrote read, not understand.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:48 pm

LOL

Actually the quote was in reference to the various philosophers’ takes on the word freedom.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:56 pm

Don’t know how good the poll was…apparently 2/3rds of Americans now support tighter gun control laws…highest ever.

As posted earlier…if you value the second amendment school shootings can not be ignored.
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