What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Fri May 27, 2022 12:03 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 11:49 am


I’m not trying to be a wise guy either but I’m not sure how to make “and possibly even required” more clear. Think of requiring people to assume responsibility for their own protection. Think of other things our various government agencies actually require: seat belts, adherence to speed limits, being x-rayed at airports, allowing boys in girls bathrooms, welcoming illegals and shipping them all over the country on the taxpayers’ dime. The list is long. If the thought of requiring guns for self defense is repulsive, how about swords? Just kidding.
Okay, I think I get it now. Thx
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Sun May 29, 2022 9:23 am

what policies can be done to prevent mass shootings
Buy all the ammo
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Mountaineer » Sun May 29, 2022 5:01 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 9:23 am
what policies can be done to prevent mass shootings
Buy all the ammo
Wonder if that strategy would work for the drug problem? Or the abortion problem? Or the drunk driver problem? Or the smash and grab problem? Or the ……… problem?

.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Mon May 30, 2022 12:07 am

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... er-points/

Here’s How We Can Prevent the Next School Massacre
Inside a growing method that experts are using to thwart disasters like the recent Oxford High rampage.
MARK FOLLMANAPRIL 13, 2022
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Mon May 30, 2022 5:44 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 5:01 pm
dualstow wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 9:23 am
what policies can be done to prevent mass shootings
Buy all the ammo
Wonder if that strategy would work for the drug problem? Or the abortion problem? Or the drunk driver problem? Or the smash and grab problem? Or the ……… problem?

.
Nope
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Mon May 30, 2022 5:50 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 12:07 am
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... er-points/

Here’s How We Can Prevent the Next School Massacre
Inside a growing method that experts are using to thwart disasters like the recent Oxford High rampage.
MARK FOLLMANAPRIL 13, 2022
Good article, Vin!
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Mountaineer » Mon May 30, 2022 2:07 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 5:44 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 5:01 pm
dualstow wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 9:23 am
what policies can be done to prevent mass shootings
Buy all the ammo
Wonder if that strategy would work for the drug problem? Or the abortion problem? Or the drunk driver problem? Or the smash and grab problem? Or the ……… problem?

.
Nope
Dual, was that a serious response, or just a response to my attempt at a satirical answer to the buy all ammo comment? My satire was attempting to point out the futility of assigning blame to many inanimate objects rather than the sinful people who do sinful things.

Peace brother and have a wonderful Memorial Day. It’s all going to be okay. 🙃
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Mon May 30, 2022 4:06 pm

It was a serious response since I wasn’t sure what to make of your response. I was on the fence as to whether it was satirical. O0
But I am quite serious about buying up the ammo. (It would then have to be safely guarded or destroyed). If enough dedicated rich people kept buying it up, we’d see fewer mass shootings. I know of no other quick and dirty solution, although I think Vinny’s article is the right place to start.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Tue May 31, 2022 12:07 am

dualstow wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 4:06 pm
It was a serious response since I wasn’t sure what to make of your response. I was on the fence as to whether it was satirical. O0
But I am quite serious about buying up the ammo. (It would then have to be safely guarded or destroyed). If enough dedicated rich people kept buying it up, we’d see fewer mass shootings. I know of no other quick and dirty solution, although I think Vinny’s article is the right place to start.
You're not alone. I'm not always sure what to make of some responses either. Some are satirical, and there are others that I actually wish were satirical.

The idea of buying up ammo got more clever the more I thought about it. A common argument against the idea of banning assault weapons is that there are already millions of them out there therefore it's too late to do anything about it.
If legislation made the production and possession of assault weapon ammo illegal, and a program was concurrently launched to buy up what inventory existed, it would resolve this problem.
The purchased ammo could be repurposed to the military for a cost offset, maybe totally. If I'm not mistaken, I think the AR-15 rounds can be used in military M-16s since they're the same basic gun.
Hoarded ammo would be treated like precious contraband.
Sure a black market may develop for ammo, but it would be inconvenient, expensive, and illegal all of which are effective deterrents, especially for someone who is angry or impaired and wants ammo right now.
Naturally the guns would cease production because the market will disappear. Who would buy a gun if you couldn't get ammo for it?
The most elegant feature is nobody's guns are being "taken". The inaccessibility of ammo makes them far less dangerous though.

Of course, all this assumes lawmakers were ever willing to actually curtail assault weapons. Looks unlikely. But if they were, this might be a strategy for doing it.

There are reasons almost no countries other than the US and Yemen allow their public to possess military grade weaponry like the AR-15. This 60 Minutes segment does a good job of dissecting why. The part of the video showing the UC ballistics lab work was very interesting. And really unsettling when you then think about how gruesome the scene must have been in Uvalde.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ar-15-mass ... 022-05-29/
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Tue May 31, 2022 5:43 am

Excellent, I look forward to watching the piece! 🙏
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by D1984 » Tue May 31, 2022 8:55 am

glennds wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 12:07 am
dualstow wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 4:06 pm
It was a serious response since I wasn’t sure what to make of your response. I was on the fence as to whether it was satirical. O0
But I am quite serious about buying up the ammo. (It would then have to be safely guarded or destroyed). If enough dedicated rich people kept buying it up, we’d see fewer mass shootings. I know of no other quick and dirty solution, although I think Vinny’s article is the right place to start.
You're not alone. I'm not always sure what to make of some responses either. Some are satirical, and there are others that I actually wish were satirical.

The idea of buying up ammo got more clever the more I thought about it. A common argument against the idea of banning assault weapons is that there are already millions of them out there therefore it's too late to do anything about it.
If legislation made the production and possession of assault weapon ammo illegal, and a program was concurrently launched to buy up what inventory existed, it would resolve this problem.
The purchased ammo could be repurposed to the military for a cost offset, maybe totally. If I'm not mistaken, I think the AR-15 rounds can be used in military M-16s since they're the same basic gun.
Hoarded ammo would be treated like precious contraband.
Sure a black market may develop for ammo, but it would be inconvenient, expensive, and illegal all of which are effective deterrents, especially for someone who is angry or impaired and wants ammo right now.
Naturally the guns would cease production because the market will disappear. Who would buy a gun if you couldn't get ammo for it?
The most elegant feature is nobody's guns are being "taken". The inaccessibility of ammo makes them far less dangerous though.

Of course, all this assumes lawmakers were ever willing to actually curtail assault weapons. Looks unlikely. But if they were, this might be a strategy for doing it.

There are reasons almost no countries other than the US and Yemen allow their public to possess military grade weaponry like the AR-15. This 60 Minutes segment does a good job of dissecting why. The part of the video showing the UC ballistics lab work was very interesting. And really unsettling when you then think about how gruesome the scene must have been in Uvalde.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ar-15-mass ... 022-05-29/
Not trying to rain on your parade here, but......how exactly do you plan on compensating every owner of just regular so-called "non-assault weapon" type rifles that take either 5:56 NATO (aka .223 Remington) or 7.62x39 Russian or 5.45x39 whose guns are now worthless since they can't get/buy/own/possess any ammo for them any more under your proposal? There are millions (maybe tens of millions) of lever-action, pump-action, bolt-action, and even semi-auto ("hunting" or "sporting" type of semi-autos rather than so-called assault rifles) rifles in the US that take these three calibers that will be made useless overnight if the gov't bans "assault weapon ammo". It seems kind of obvious to point out, but there is no such thing as some kind of special magical ammunition that can only be used in an AR-15 that can't also be used in a hunting rifle chambered in that exact same caliber.

What you are describing very well could fall under what the courts call a "regulatory taking" (when the government passes a law or regulation that regulates privately owned goods or items or property so strictly that it makes it all but useless for its intended purpose) and there are several court cases from the early 80s to the present day that stipulate that when the gov't does this it has to fairly compensate the owners of said effected property just like they would if they actually outright took the property (i.e. just like they have to compensate you with market value of your land or home when they take it via eminent domain).

Not to mention, if you just ban the ammo in these calibers, the manufactures can (and will) just switch to a new almost identical caliber to chamber their new assault weapons in (and gunsmiths no doubt will make a pretty penny re-chambering existing AR-15s to said calibers)....look what happened with the .50 BMG spawning the the .416 Barrett or .510 DTC (virtual clones of .50 BMG in terms of ballistics that were created simply to get around bans of .50 BMG caliber rifles and ammunition) for an exact example of this happening in real life.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Tue May 31, 2022 10:53 am

D1984 wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 8:55 am


Not trying to rain on your parade here, but.....
Well you rained on my parade alright D1984. But thanks for taking me to school on the technical issues. When time permits, I might read up on how they articulated the "assault weapon" ban of 1994. Although that ban only passed narrowly, and did not survive the ten year sunset. The bottom line seems to be that as long as the various constituents of these guns are entrenched in the status quo, the prospect of change is unlikely.

For a non-gun owner watching that 60 Minutes segment inside the ballistics lab, it's hard to understand why high velocity ultra destructive guns of that type should be accessible to the public.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Jack Jones » Tue May 31, 2022 1:50 pm

  • Regulate coverage of such events by the media.
  • Stop training kids about what to do in the event of a school shooting. It is highly unlikely that they will be involved in a mass shooting.
By focusing on what we're trying to prevent, we're making it more likely to happen. I have no cable TV, and I homeschool my son. He may never know what a school shooting is, and therefore he is highly unlikely to commit the act.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by boglerdude » Tue May 31, 2022 5:32 pm

Define adult as 21. No guns, voting, drugs, draft, or consent before then. Lightning kills more than school shootings.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1 ... 0394446849

Triple-jabbed and still wearing masks 2+ years later. Purely a display of allegiance to Collectivism. A bigger threat than Putin or rising rates.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Tue May 31, 2022 5:37 pm

The reason I suggested private citizens buying up the ammo is because I don’t see regulation winning in the U.S.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:58 pm

Yesterday there was a shooting at a medical building on a hospital campus in Tulsa, 5 dead including the shooter. From what I can tell the shooter was a patient who had back surgery a couple of weeks ago, and was obviously dissatisfied, enough to come back and kill the performing surgeon, one other doctor and two others, patients I think. News is still coming out, but one report says he bought "an AR-15 style" rifle used in the shooting a few hours before. He also bought a handgun from a pawn shop on Sunday.

So along the lines of nibbling at the edges, how much of an infringement do folks feel a nationwide mandatory waiting period might be?
I did some quick research and it looks like four states have waiting periods for all firearms, four others have waiting periods for handguns only, and 1 for both handguns and assault style rifles. But most states have no waiting period of any kind.

The waiting period might be enough of a cooling off period for someone who is in the grip of uncontrollable anger, or suicidal, or under some other influence. Obviously it wouldn't prevent every shooting, but surely it would prevent some?
Last edited by glennds on Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:12 pm

glennds wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:58 pm

Yesterday there was a shooting at a medical building on a hospital campus in Tulsa, 5 dead including the shooter. From what I can tell the shooter was a patient who had back surgery a couple of weeks ago, and was obviously dissatisfied, enough to come back and kill the performing surgeon, one other doctor and two others, patients I think. News is still coming out, but one report says he bought "an AR-15 style" rifle used in the shooting a few hours before. He also bought a handgun from a pawn shop on Sunday.

So along the lines of nibbling at the edges, how much of an infringement do folks feel a nationwide mandatory waiting period might be?
I did some quick research and it looks like four states have waiting periods for all firearms, four others have waiting periods for handguns only, and 1 for both handguns and assault style rifles. But most states have no waiting period of any kind.

The waiting period might be enough of a cooling off period for someone who is in the grip of uncontrollable anger, or maybe suicidal, or under some other influence. Obviously it wouldn't prevent every shooting, but surely it would prevent some?


Obviously....but just about all the time the response from gun advocates is...."It will lead to taking away OUR guns!"
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:20 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:12 pm


Obviously....but just about all the time the response from gun advocates is...."It will lead to taking away OUR guns!"
Maybe, maybe not. That's why I asked. Most gun advocates already have their guns. A waiting period only encumbers a new buyer which is a much smaller subset. And even that group will still have their firearm eventually, just not immediately.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:37 pm

glennds wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:20 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:12 pm



Obviously....but just about all the time the response from gun advocates is...."It will lead to taking away OUR guns!"


Maybe, maybe not. That's why I asked. Most gun advocates already have their guns. A waiting period only encumbers a new buyer which is a much smaller subset. And even that group will still have their firearm eventually, just not immediately.


But almost all the gun advocates almost always interpret any form of restriction on gun ownership as eventually leading to taking away their guns.

I asked a friend if there is some kind of collective mindset in the Northeast which is somewhat analogous to the mindset of those part of the gun culture. Neither of us could name one.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:52 pm

I took a quick poll of four gun owner friends about a national mandated waiting period (I proposed 10 days).

Friend 1: No objection, small price to pay to prevent people in the wrong state of mind from getting immediate access to guns.

Friend 2: No objection. Anybody worth his/her salt already owns a gun.The waiting period is what you get for poor planning.

Friend 3: Objection not on substance but on principle - any restriction, even a delay, is an infringement on a constitutional right and just more of the nanny state.

Friend 4: Major objection. What if the George Floyd riots were going on and I needed a gun immediately for my protection? With a waiting period I'd be screwed.

Bottom line, no conclusive answer. As I think about it, I could see most gun owners falling pretty well into one, maybe two of these sentiment groups.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:01 pm

Illinois has 1 day for long guns and 3 days for handguns. I found it to be a pain in the ass. I’d drive an hour to a big gun show, and find a handgun I wanted, but the dealer was from 2 hours away in the opposite direction. So to buy it, I have to wait 3 days and then drive 6 hours round trip.

I just think it’s like all the other ideas that are trying to nibble around the edges. They don’t accomplish anything except to irritate regular people.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:07 pm

I find it interesting that the mental health interest community strenuously objects to the idea that these shooters are probably mentally ill. They say such talk stigmatizes the mentally ill. What the hell.

No, don’t look into that.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:51 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:07 pm

I find it interesting that the mental health interest community strenuously objects to the idea that these shooters are probably mentally ill. They say such talk stigmatizes the mentally ill. What the hell.

No, don’t look into that.


I heard today that only 4% of the shooters are mentally ill. A valid stat?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:20 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:51 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:07 pm
I find it interesting that the mental health interest community strenuously objects to the idea that these shooters are probably mentally ill. They say such talk stigmatizes the mentally ill. What the hell.

No, don’t look into that.
I heard today that only 4% of the shooters are mentally ill. A valid stat?
My first response is that if it isn't 100%, then our definition of "mentally ill" needs to change. Surely anybody doing something like that is some kind of crazy. Not the kind that excuses them from punishment, though. Maybe that's the 4% number.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:22 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:37 pm
But almost all the gun advocates almost always interpret any form of restriction on gun ownership as eventually leading to taking away their guns.

I asked a friend if there is some kind of collective mindset in the Northeast which is somewhat analogous to the mindset of those part of the gun culture. Neither of us could name one.
Abortion is treated like that a lot of the time. "Nibbling around the edges" such as parental notification, or requiring an ultrasound are blasted as trying to erode a constitutional right.
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