What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

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vnatale
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:03 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:09 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:44 pm

I have no idea how this compares to say, Uruguay. But you can own guns there too, and they don't seem to have people shooting up schools.


I always think of Canada.


They have 1/10th our population. At least 1/4 (probably far less) the guy ownership rate that we do. So right there they are again, WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, going to have 1/40th as likely as our country to have the same things happening.

It seems that in the last 23 years since Columbine we've had 11 mass school shootings. One every two years. Canada would then have one every 80 years. That is a simple explanation of why they have not.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:05 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:13 pm


Well, "gun maximalism" is the position of the Constitution.
Not necessarily. That may be your interpretation of the position of the Constitution. And while many of your fellow citizens may agree with you, many do not.
So what the Constitution says about gun ownership and what was intended, is still a matter of debate. Therein lies the rub.
The Supreme Court has yet to provide definitive clarification, and has actually opined inconsistently. There's also the broader inconvenient doctrine that NO rights are absolute or unlimited.

I think it would be interesting for society to ask itself what it would want today, without being encumbered by what the Constitution says or what the framers intended. Instead to treat the issue as a clean slate and ask ourselves what we want going forward.
I think it was Jefferson who informally proposed at one point that the Constitution self destruct every 20 years because of the inherent tyranny of one generation binding a future generation. I think he also contemplated the challenges of a static document's effectiveness in an evolving, changing world.
Of course, all this is mostly a thought experiment because as a practical matter, the political cooperation necessary for substantive change is highly unlikely in our dysfunctional political landscape.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:28 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:03 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:09 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:44 pm

I have no idea how this compares to say, Uruguay. But you can own guns there too, and they don't seem to have people shooting up schools.
I always think of Canada.
They have 1/10th our population. At least 1/4 (probably far less) the guy ownership rate that we do. So right there they are again, WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, going to have 1/40th as likely as our country to have the same things happening.

It seems that in the last 23 years since Columbine we've had 11 mass school shootings. One every two years. Canada would then have one every 80 years. That is a simple explanation of why they have not.
There you go again Vinny - getting all logical on us. Please keep to the emotional side of things; it's far more exciting and Jerry Springer like even if reasonable dialog or solutions suffer. ;) O0

I really hesitate to put my toe in the swamp again, but in my not so humble opinion, as long as killing millions of pre-born children is permitted, even endorsed, I have no ears to hear about gun control being about saving lives. Sanctimonious hypocrites with zero credibility are the emotional gun control advocates who have drunk the cool aid. Forgive me, I know that perceived name calling is not condusive to productive dialog but sometimes you just have to call a thing what it is (*) - perhaps the "church of gun control" is a suitable moniker; it does seem to be a religion among many.

(*) In the 1500s, as Martin Luther began to step back and identify the most serious problems facing the church, what he called a “theology of glory” quickly jumped to the top of his list. Simply described, this is a church obsessed with appearing holy, powerful, or shiny. By contrast, a community that practices what Luther came to call a "theology of the cross" calls a thing what it is. For Luther, this meant attending honestly to the suffering and sin in people’s lives. Don’t sugarcoat it, we might say.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:39 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:03 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:09 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:44 pm

I have no idea how this compares to say, Uruguay. But you can own guns there too, and they don't seem to have people shooting up schools.
I always think of Canada.
They have 1/10th our population. At least 1/4 (probably far less) the guy ownership rate that we do. So right there they are again, WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, going to have 1/40th as likely as our country to have the same things happening.

It seems that in the last 23 years since Columbine we've had 11 mass school shootings. One every two years. Canada would then have one every 80 years. That is a simple explanation of why they have not.
Interesting, Vinny. And I have seen this site that had one study which puts Norway at the top O0

I don’t know if records of gun ownership account for the fact that an individual often owns a lot of guns. It’s not like counting cars. And even though statistics are a good place to start, I don’t know that all other things are equal. Also, if you change the parameters to including other types of shootings and not just the current definitely of mass shootings, I am willing to bet that the U.S. will come out as…shootier.
Canada's rate of firearm homicides is 0.5 per 100,000 people, versus the United States' rate of 4.12, the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) said in a 2021 analysis.
https://www.reuters.com/world/how-canad ... 022-05-26/
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:49 am

P.S. What about comparing the U.S. to itself? 2021 to 1971?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:19 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:05 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:13 pm


Well, "gun maximalism" is the position of the Constitution.
Not necessarily. That may be your interpretation of the position of the Constitution. And while many of your fellow citizens may agree with you, many do not.
So what the Constitution says about gun ownership and what was intended, is still a matter of debate. Therein lies the rub.
The Supreme Court has yet to provide definitive clarification, and has actually opined inconsistently. There's also the broader inconvenient doctrine that NO rights are absolute or unlimited.

I think it would be interesting for society to ask itself what it would want today, without being encumbered by what the Constitution says or what the framers intended. Instead to treat the issue as a clean slate and ask ourselves what we want going forward.
I think it was Jefferson who informally proposed at one point that the Constitution self destruct every 20 years because of the inherent tyranny of one generation binding a future generation. I think he also contemplated the challenges of a static document's effectiveness in an evolving, changing world.
Of course, all this is mostly a thought experiment because as a practical matter, the political cooperation necessary for substantive change is highly unlikely in our dysfunctional political landscape.
The Constitution (at least, the Bill of Rights) is supposed to be an encumberance to prevent runaway government.

And how exactly is what you're proposing different from what I'm proposing? I'm saying that the debate should be what the second amendment should actually say, not how can we get around it. Isn't that what you're also saying here?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:37 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:28 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:03 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:09 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:44 pm

I have no idea how this compares to say, Uruguay. But you can own guns there too, and they don't seem to have people shooting up schools.


I always think of Canada.


They have 1/10th our population. At least 1/4 (probably far less) the guy ownership rate that we do. So right there they are again, WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, going to have 1/40th as likely as our country to have the same things happening.

It seems that in the last 23 years since Columbine we've had 11 mass school shootings. One every two years. Canada would then have one every 80 years. That is a simple explanation of why they have not.


There you go again Vinny - getting all logical on us. Please keep to the emotional side of things; it's far more exciting and Jerry Springer like even if reasonable dialog or solutions suffer. ;) O0

I really hesitate to put my toe in the swamp again, but in my not so humble opinion, as long as killing millions of pre-born children is permitted, even endorsed, I have no ears to hear about gun control being about saving lives. Sanctimonious hypocrites with zero credibility are the emotional gun control advocates who have drunk the cool aid. Forgive me, I know that perceived name calling is not condusive to productive dialog but sometimes you just have to call a thing what it is (*) - perhaps the "church of gun control" is a suitable moniker; it does seem to be a religion among many.

(*) In the 1500s, as Martin Luther began to step back and identify the most serious problems facing the church, what he called a “theology of glory” quickly jumped to the top of his list. Simply described, this is a church obsessed with appearing holy, powerful, or shiny. By contrast, a community that practices what Luther came to call a "theology of the cross" calls a thing what it is. For Luther, this meant attending honestly to the suffering and sin in people’s lives. Don’t sugarcoat it, we might say.


Though not endorsed the killing and maiming of children has been permitted by both our choice of vehicles and our speed limits. Due to having a higher altar for choice / freedom / convenience than the welfare of children we permit behaviors on the highways - mis-matched vehicle sizes and high speed limits - which lead to a higher incidence of death / maiming of children than if we mandated either all large vehicles or all small vehicles or, most paramount, drastically reduced speed limits.

It's the same with guns. In the name of choice and freedom leads to a greater prevalence of guns. The more guns available the more incidents of criminal violence there will be. Simple math and probabilities?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:42 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:37 am
Though not endorsed the killing and maiming of children has been permitted by both our choice of vehicles and our speed limits. Due to having a higher altar for choice / freedom / convenience than the welfare of children we permit behaviors on the highways - mis-matched vehicle sizes and high speed limits - which lead to a higher incidence of death / maiming of children than if we mandated either all large vehicles or all small vehicles or, most paramountly, drastically reduced speed limits.

It's the same with guns. The more guns available the more incidents of criminal violence there will be. Simple math?
I would say "tolerated" would be a better word than "permitted", and the difference between "endorsed" and "tolerated" is huge. There's a vast difference between:
a) recognizing that all deaths cannot be prevented, that tradeoffs must be struck, and in no case do we want any child to die, and
b) intentionally killing a child

Would it make sense in a murder trial to say "it's okay that I killed Jim, because we as a society are okay with lots of people being killed on the roads"?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:07 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:42 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:37 am
Though not endorsed the killing and maiming of children has been permitted by both our choice of vehicles and our speed limits. Due to having a higher altar for choice / freedom / convenience than the welfare of children we permit behaviors on the highways - mis-matched vehicle sizes and high speed limits - which lead to a higher incidence of death / maiming of children than if we mandated either all large vehicles or all small vehicles or, most paramountly, drastically reduced speed limits.

It's the same with guns. The more guns available the more incidents of criminal violence there will be. Simple math?


I would say "tolerated" would be a better word than "permitted", and the difference between "endorsed" and "tolerated" is huge. There's a vast difference between:
a) recognizing that all deaths cannot be prevented, that tradeoffs must be struck, and in no case do we want any child to die, and
b) intentionally killing a child

Would it make sense in a murder trial to say "it's okay that I killed Jim, because we as a society are okay with lots of people being killed on the roads"?


Yes. All you say is true.

However, we have made the tradeoffs regarding vehicles that we are willing to accept all these children being killed and maimed so as to accomplish other goals.

Also abortion has never been regarded by any laws as equivalent to the murder of a child. Yes, if the abortion had not occurred then there would be the resultant birth of a child. However, until that child is officially born then that "child" is not yet a child.

Finally, I am continually bringing up my vehicles example of how our society is willing to make the tradeoffs that result in every year children being killed and maimed in traffic accidents and is unwilling to make any changes to reduce the number of this harm to children. Yet when it comes to school killings it is willing to spend a disproportionate amount of money, e.g. hardening of schools, hiring security for schools, for how much reduction in children deaths will actually occur. So it comes down to society saying, death in schools ALWAYS unacceptable and pay any costs to prevent it but death and maiming of children on the highways acceptable because we do not want to pay any additional costs, e.g., reduced speed limits, to reduce deaths and casualties.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:40 am

PrimalToker wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 pm
Everyone in 1776 knew that a government with a military 100% of the time turns against the population. The United States should not have a standing army. No Army, No Marines, No Navy, No Air force, No National Guard. There should only be the Coast Guard, and state sponsored militias. The military is spread throughout the population, only officially forming when congress declares war and creates an army. After the war the military is disbanded and equipment dispersed throughout the states. The real entity that shouldn't be allowed to have weapons is the federal government.
My former self would love to meet you on the field of battle. You bring the militia. Depending on how big your militia is I'm bringing I think some Delta guys and a Spooky. If you are larger in size, some Reapers and a couple of B-2s ought do it. If your militia is really big, well then let's just throw the whole shooting match at you.

Just read a little bit about what is going on in Ukraine...this should tell you your idea is completely stupid (you know assuming you actually want to win the war vs. making some political 2nd amendment bs point shortly before you get to go meet your maker).

The humans who are the best at killing practice at it a lot. And the humans capable of killing at large scale use things that take lots of practice to know how to use and then use their tools effectively and as part of a very large, integrated and coordinated killing team. If your opponent is both suicidal and has no sense of humanity they shoot these highly technical things at you that are long and oblongish looking with rounded off 3 dimensional triangles on the top. Your guys with guns and their guns get turned into ash and gun metal returns to mother earth as a liquid blob.

Humans are really good at killing each other...if you think bringing an intermural softball team of fat old men to the majors is a good idea, good luck with that.

So let me be perfectly clear on one point...guns do not bring you freedom or safety. Good civil society and the rule of law is what brings both.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:44 am

You have a great point on the highways vs shooter analogy. Those situations could be looked at very similarly. Of course the major difference is the presence of somebody with murderous intent, but if we consider that to be a random uncontrollable thing, then it works out the same.

In general I would say that a position that the only acceptable number of negative outcomes is zero and that any cost must be paid to prevent such outcomes is folly. And we're not even considering some of the most important costs.

For example, an elementary school nearby has for decades had an open campus, with a large number of small buildings that kids walk between, and a really nice atmosphere. Now it's got a big fence around it. Where I went to high school now has huge walls where there were no walls. Not only is this tremendously expensive in terms of money, for a dubious reduction in risk, but what do these changes do for the psyche of the students?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:27 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:44 am

You have a great point on the highways vs shooter analogy. Those situations could be looked at very similarly. Of course the major difference is the presence of somebody with murderous intent, but if we consider that to be a random uncontrollable thing, then it works out the same.

In general I would say that a position that the only acceptable number of negative outcomes is zero and that any cost must be paid to prevent such outcomes is folly. And we're not even considering some of the most important costs.

For example, an elementary school nearby has for decades had an open campus, with a large number of small buildings that kids walk between, and a really nice atmosphere. Now it's got a big fence around it. Where I went to high school now has huge walls where there were no walls. Not only is this tremendously expensive in terms of money, for a dubious reduction in risk, but what do these changes do for the psyche of the students?


To be clear my point is that there is a massive emotional overreaction which causes what you describe. Also, all other things being equal, if each school hired a security person for its school, it is most likely losing one teacher.

How much poorer are we then as a nation for having eliminated one teacher from every school in the country?
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:32 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:40 am

My former self would love to meet you on the field of battle. You bring the militia. Depending on how big your militia is I'm bringing I think some Delta guys and a Spooky. If you are larger in size, some Reapers and a couple of B-2s ought do it. If your militia is really big, well then let's just throw the whole shooting match at you.

Just read a little bit about what is going on in Ukraine...this should tell you your idea is completely stupid (you know assuming you actually want to win the war vs. making some political 2nd amendment bs point shortly before you get to go meet your maker).

The humans who are the best at killing practice at it a lot. And the humans capable of killing at large scale use things that take lots of practice to know how to use and then use their tools effectively and as part of a very large, integrated and coordinated killing team. If your opponent is both suicidal and has no sense of humanity they shoot these highly technical things at you that are long and oblongish looking with rounded off 3 dimensional triangles on the top. Your guys with guns and their guns get turned into ash and gun metal returns to mother earth as a liquid blob.

Humans are really good at killing each other...if you think bringing an intermural softball team of fat old men to the majors is a good idea, good luck with that.

So let me be perfectly clear on one point...guns do not bring you freedom or safety. Good civil society and the rule of law is what brings both.
I loved everything about this post, but would have liked it even better if you had worked in "band of bubbas" somewhere.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:52 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:19 am
glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:05 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:13 pm


Well, "gun maximalism" is the position of the Constitution.
Not necessarily. That may be your interpretation of the position of the Constitution. And while many of your fellow citizens may agree with you, many do not.
So what the Constitution says about gun ownership and what was intended, is still a matter of debate. Therein lies the rub.
The Constitution (at least, the Bill of Rights) is supposed to be an encumberance to prevent runaway government.

And how exactly is what you're proposing different from what I'm proposing? I'm saying that the debate should be what the second amendment should actually say, not how can we get around it. Isn't that what you're also saying here?
Simply put, I think it's a matter of debate whether "gun maximalism" is in fact the position of the Constitution. I think that's where we disagree.
A definitive Supreme Court interpretation of the current law and its limits would be what I propose. I do not think re-writing, replacing or amending the 2nd Amendment is feasible at this time.

There are only a handful of cases going back to 1895. Recently, SCOTUS has not even been willing to accept the challenge to the constitutionality of California's waiting period law. The general consensus is they're reluctant to step into the debate. IMO that's their job.

So in the absence of adjudication, we have individuals interpreting the 2nd Amendment in the way they want it to be, gun companies and industry groups pushing the interpretation that best for them, and politicians doing the same.

Now if we did have a SCOTUS ruling that clarified the boundaries of the law, and if it were not to society's satisfaction, then we come to your idea of a re-write. But I don't think we're there yet.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:59 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:32 am
would have liked it even better if you had worked in "band of bubbas" somewhere.
I'll try harder next time. :-)

Obviously this line of thinking drives me nuts as I think it is not grounded in modern day reality.

Personally, I think school shootings is a serious threat to the 2nd amendment and anyone serious about wanting to preserve their right to arms should get engaged. If it keeps happening at some point, the majority is going to say enough is enough. I also think there are some serious points that could be part of a solution beyond additional gun controls that would be helpful.

Serious $$$ spent on studying what are the causal factors that cause young men to do this?

Once identified, are we serious about taking them on? I'll bet there are several points a conservative could gore the left with (and big tech) and barter on in terms of measures.

I think we all would admit one very unpleasant fact...there is a serious copy cat phenomenon with this particular form of violence. If we aren't going to do a news black out on these events maybe we do the opposite...widely publicize pictures of dead shooters with some super gross brain matter scattered around being even better. If there is audio of the shooter in pain from being wounded get that out there.

There's more I'm sure...but the thought is deglamorize and stigmatize this stuff to the maximum possible.

No questions asked regardless of age and mental capacity...the death penalty as a Federal crime.

Liability for video game manufactures if shooter games was deemed to be a factor

There's lots of things to be done

And as a gun owner...I have zero problem with 30 day waiting periods and extensive background checks for any and all gun purchases. (Yep you're going to bet put in a big gubment database...don't care. You are in several already.)
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:24 am

I couldn't agree more with the importance of understanding causal factors behind mass shooters.
I'd like to think some agency or smart person has been dissecting the particular situation of each mass shooter looking for common themes. This might interviewing the living ones. Also, studying their internet trails. I'm thinking of the FBI profilers portrayed in movies.

There ought to be similarities in these situations that would make us smarter about the root causes. Yes it would be a tedious project that goes well beyond the attention span of the public, but that's what's involved in solving complicated problems.

A psychologist who studies school shootings has a repository website: https://schoolshooters.info/. It contains documents and background on 150 perpetrators of school shootings, their writings, other documents providing insight into their despair, psychosis, etc.
It's pretty creepy for sure, but what else can you expect as morbid a subject is as a school shooting? But if you're willing to dive in and be an armchair profiler, there are surely root causes and hindsight warning signs.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:30 am

🚧 Since the abortion discussion is no longer even pretending to be part of the gun control thread, it gets its own space where it belongs
Abortion Discussion 2022
/DS 🚧
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Kbg » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:37 am

I think the profile is fairly well known...social isolation with a grudge of one sort or another seems to be a huge part of it.

Pure guess...the hard part is/will be there are a ton of young males with this profile. How do you sort the non-violent from the ones who turn into shooters?

Side note...the target is for the shooter to gain notoriety. Tangentially there is quite a bit of literature in the counter-terrorism world on basically the same phenomenon. (Killing for publicity) The response is to always speak negatively and shape the lexicon to negatively paint terrorist acts as pick a negative word goes here.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by joypog » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:49 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:37 am
I think the profile is fairly well known...social isolation with a grudge of one sort or another seems to be a huge part of it.
According to David French, studies of the past 50 years, have shown that almost all mass shooters have leaked their plans before committing the deed. Its basically part of the Columbine script now...as you noted these are largely copycat crimes.

This Good Faith Episode is a good discussion between David French, conservative commentator, and Curtis Chang a more squishy evangelical from the Bay Area about the issue.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by glennds » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:50 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:37 am
I think the profile is fairly well known...social isolation with a grudge of one sort or another seems to be a huge part of it.
More complicated than that. This psychologist website author proposes three categories:
Despite frequent references in the media to a “profile” of school shooters, there is no one profile. Based on my research, however, shooters tend to fall into one of three psychological types:

Psychopathic shooters are narcissistic, entitled, lacking in empathy, and sometimes sadistic. Some are abrasive and belligerent; others are charming and deceptive.
Psychotic shooters have either schizophrenia or schizotypal personality disorder, with a combination of psychotic symptoms (hallucinations, delusions, disorganized thoughts/behavior), eccentric behavior and beliefs, and severely impaired social/emotional functioning.
Traumatized shooters grew up in chronically dysfunctional families characterized by parental substance abuse, domestic violence, physical abuse, sometimes sexual abuse, frequent relocations, and changing caregivers.
I don't think it takes a luminary to say the multi decades deterioration in the American traditional family society has driven #3. IMO we can have all the guns and laws in the history of mankind, but if our society is fundamentally unhealthy no bandage will stop the bleeding.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by joypog » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:59 am
Personally, I think school shootings is a serious threat to the 2nd amendment and anyone serious about wanting to preserve their right to arms should get engaged. If it keeps happening at some point, the majority is going to say enough is enough. I also think there are some serious points that could be part of a solution beyond additional gun controls that would be helpful.
That's my thought. I think the slippery slope arguement is much less a true danger than the drive off the cliff overreaction.

For example, over the past two decades I've gone from neutral on guns (never owned nor fired one, but acknowledging its critical part of our national culture) to becoming extremist adjacent (open to 2A repealment) as things continue to boil and gun rights folks are unwilling to do anything about the problem.

Unfortunately media and political actors prefer "non-action+over-reaction" over deliberate compromise and nothing happens.
1/n weirdo. US-TSM, US-SCV, Intl-SCV, LTT, STT, GLD (+ a little in MF)
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:30 am
🚧 Since the abortion discussion is no longer even pretending to be part of the gun control thread, it gets its own space where it belongs
Abortion Discussion 2022
/DS 🚧
Probably a good move for the masses Dualstow. I must say however that for me the root cause of mass shootings and the root cause of abortion are very closely associated. Many in our society just don’t want to acknowledge it because it makes themselves quite uncomfortable and it’s easier to just ignore it, or blame some inanimate object (e.g. gun) or others for actions causing the “problem”.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by joypog » Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:01 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:55 am
dualstow wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:30 am
🚧 Since the abortion discussion is no longer even pretending to be part of the gun control thread, it gets its own space where it belongs
Abortion Discussion 2022
/DS 🚧
Probably a good move for the masses Dualstow. I must say however that for me the root cause of mass shootings and the root cause of abortion are very closely associated. Many in our society just don’t want to acknowledge it because it makes themselves quite uncomfortable and it’s easier to just ignore it, or blame some inanimate object (e.g. gun) or others for actions causing the “problem”.
Well you brought up two problems.
1) The rottening of humanity
2) Society's willingness to let rotten humans obtain tools of mass murder.

Not sure what we can do about #1 (your anti-abortion arguement is tangential at best), and our unwillingness to do anything about #2 seems be more of an indication of #1 than the opposite.

(for example, a conservative friend posted on FB an article about a knife attack in california that wounded 3 people a day after Uvalde. Wounded. only three people. That's a slam dunk arguement for more gun control.).
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by PrimalToker » Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:05 pm

I agree, If this is about saving lives, then cars are much more violent than guns. Car violence must be stopped. Perhaps we need common sense speed limits like a national 35mph limit. Create red flag laws and institute universal driving tests. If it prevents one death its worth it. No body needs to be a race car driver thats for professionals. No one needs high capacity engines, a maximum horsepower should be set. You dont have a right to a car, rights have limits. If you see a friend or neighbor driving just a bit too fast then call the police and report him and have his license suspended indefinitely without due process or evidence until he proves himself innocent. Makes perfect sense.
Last edited by PrimalToker on Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What polcies can be done to prevent mass shootings

Post by PrimalToker » Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:08 pm

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:40 am
PrimalToker wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 pm
Everyone in 1776 knew that a government with a military 100% of the time turns against the population. The United States should not have a standing army. No Army, No Marines, No Navy, No Air force, No National Guard. There should only be the Coast Guard, and state sponsored militias. The military is spread throughout the population, only officially forming when congress declares war and creates an army. After the war the military is disbanded and equipment dispersed throughout the states. The real entity that shouldn't be allowed to have weapons is the federal government.
My former self would love to meet you on the field of battle. You bring the militia. Depending on how big your militia is I'm bringing I think some Delta guys and a Spooky. If you are larger in size, some Reapers and a couple of B-2s ought do it. If your militia is really big, well then let's just throw the whole shooting match at you.

Just read a little bit about what is going on in Ukraine...this should tell you your idea is completely stupid (you know assuming you actually want to win the war vs. making some political 2nd amendment bs point shortly before you get to go meet your maker).

The humans who are the best at killing practice at it a lot. And the humans capable of killing at large scale use things that take lots of practice to know how to use and then use their tools effectively and as part of a very large, integrated and coordinated killing team. If your opponent is both suicidal and has no sense of humanity they shoot these highly technical things at you that are long and oblongish looking with rounded off 3 dimensional triangles on the top. Your guys with guns and their guns get turned into ash and gun metal returns to mother earth as a liquid blob.

Humans are really good at killing each other...if you think bringing an intermural softball team of fat old men to the majors is a good idea, good luck with that.

So let me be perfectly clear on one point...guns do not bring you freedom or safety. Good civil society and the rule of law is what brings both.
You're a complete idiot.
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