Iraq and other Offshoots of Ukraine II thread

[dualstow]

Continuing from Ukraine II, about here .

Gotcha. Thank you for the follow-up.
(Off topic but for what it’s worth I’ve got a good friend from Iraq who moved to the States as a direct result of the invasion. He definitely has mixed feelings. For him, Iraq is “broken” and will probably not be whole again in his lifetime. On the other hand, he’s building a good life here).

My entire mid-east experience was generally not a positive one. I think the middle east was broken before we got there and it is still broken. At some point in time you have to look in the mirror and face up to the fact that not everything jacked up in your country is/was due to European/US imperialism/military actions. Some of the most democratic, well functioning countries in the world are a direct product of British imperialism?

It took me a while to figure something out but I think worth commenting on here...Americans as a whole are a very self-centric lot. American or foreign reporters love to find (smart) Arabs who will blame everything on the US and then we feel guilty about it. But the smart American will ask themselves...why is that Arab guy/gal blaming history for a "now" thing?

No doubt we did hard break the previous governmental structure of Iraq and we did so in hind site on inaccurate reasons. But the facts on the ground are this...tyrannical brutal dictatorship gone, former religious minority control (based solely on force) also gone. Replaced by religious majority control that is power shared with Iraq's largest non-Arab ethnic group. All the above hugely shaped by Iran next door. Finally, they also have elections that actually mean something and have an impact.

You tell me, better, worse, or no real change essentially?

I don't know. I'd have to have lived through it. But ironically, I think any assumption that Iraq is better off now is part of the self-centrism you mentioned. Ok, this part is going to look bad, because it's going to look like I'm comparing humans to pigs. My Iraqi friend would cringe. Not my intent. But, you know how every once in a while an article comes out that shows how terribly pigs treat each other? It's not an excuse to butcher them, but it does feel like they're mean to each other, as I join in the anthropomorphizing. Imagine if aliens saw the way humans treated each other, looked closely at atrocities of war and sex slaves, etc, and decided to do something drastic about it. For our betterment.

With Iraq, it's partly about culture. In many ways they're just like us. In other ways, they may as well be an alien species to us, and us to them. (I don't mean to keep talking about aliens ). I can lean back and watch the war on TV and say, Saddam was a horrible tyrant and he's gone. This is a no-brainer. Soldiers who fought in the war on our side, soldiers who have suffered and who know a hell of a lot more than some dork who watched it on TV can also say, Saddam was a horrible despot. This is a no-brainer. He's gone. It's better now.

In Iraq, whether or not the upshot of the invasion is good overall really depends on the details and on specific Iraqis. I would guess that someone who has relatives who ended up on Saddam's torture table would agree with you, kbg. My friend didn't experience it. He and his family were having a good life, and things were stable. Because of the war, he ended up in Syria for a time before he could come to the U.S. and he suffered. I'm pretty sure I don't know the whole story. I just know, as you do, that it's not as simple as, 'Well, Saddam's gone now, so things are looking up.' No, there is constant chaos. There are assassinations and bombings. You could easily die going to the wrong market on the wrong day. No stability. And no guarantee that another strongman won't eventually replace Saddam in a few decades.

I'll say it plainly. I'm not really a fan of Arab culture. Neither Islamic culture (maybe I'd like the ancient part) nor the tribal elements. I like Western culture. I think we went in there with good intentions despite the shitty yellowcake pretext. But we caused a lot of pain and suffering, much of it unintentional, and it could be decades before we find out if it was worth the blood and treasure. I'm not one of the big America blamers; on the contrary, I'm on the other end of the spectrum on this forum. However, we're all learning that it's really difficult to graft democracy onto an Arab/Islamic substrate. It doesn't always take. Even the Arab Spring didn't take.

[I Shrugged]

Regardless, the ends don't justify those means.

[Kbg]

The world is messy...let's use the figure of what we caused as 100K.

Most of what I've read is that Saddam is give or take directly responsible for around 1-1.5M deaths (most of that in the Iraq/Iran war). Around 250-300k Iraqis independent of the war.

Given the above, what say you? God's justice?

My personal take on the whole thing...not a good idea in the first place. But there were two good results.

1) Saddam gone

2) The whole invasion was in the context of the war on terrorism and I can attest to the fact that Iraq was a jihadi magnet for several years and we killed a butt load of bad people who came there to kill Americans. It wasn't the plan, but I think it worked out nicely in the end. I'm thoroughly convinced there would have been a lot more terrorist actions elsewhere in the west except for the fact that it was easy for jihadis to get to Iraq from all points in the mid-east. They got to do jihad, we got to give them their martyrdom. Worked out great for both sides. Obviously this is a historical counterfactual and we will never know if my take is or would have been accurate.

I once was invited to a church group to talk about my experiences and I was asked if I felt bad/grief or guilt about my involvement in military things. I told them that honestly every act I was involved in where an opposing solider was killed I always thought that he was someone's son, husband, father etc. and felt both sadness I was involved, they were involved and there was a family involved who would not have someone in their life they loved and cared for. I then followed up with the comment that when it came to committed Al-Qaeda or ISIS, I was more than happy to be doing my job. Zero guilt or remorse.

I would not infrequently reflect on comments from US WW 2 soldiers about the difference they felt between the Wehrmacht and the SS...I could definitely relate.

[Dieter]

<snip>

My personal take on the whole thing...not a good idea in the first place. But there were two good results.

1) Saddam gone

2) The whole invasion was in the context of the war on terrorism and I can attest to the fact that Iraq was a jihadi magnet for several years and we killed a butt load of bad people who came there to kill Americans. It wasn't the plan, but I think it worked out nicely in the end. I'm thoroughly convinced there would have been a lot more terrorist actions elsewhere in the west except for the fact that it was easy for jihadis to get to Iraq from all points in the mid-east. They got to do jihad, we got to give them their martyrdom. Worked out great for both sides. Obviously this is a historical counterfactual and we will never know if my take is or would have been accurate.

<more snip>

I hadn't thought about #2. I can definitely see that

Also showed that US air power rocks

Probably good for western arms sales ; might have kept some folks from trying anything given the example

(I'm also in the "not a good idea in the first place" camp though)