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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:35 pm
by dualstow
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:43 pm

It's pretty obvious Putin thought Ukraine would be easy. I think that was the overriding factor, but the NATO/EU expansion factor surely weighed heavily in the decision to invade.
Have you seen Putin’s own speeches about how he’s Peter the Great?

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:46 pm
by I Shrugged
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:35 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:43 pm

It's pretty obvious Putin thought Ukraine would be easy. I think that was the overriding factor, but the NATO/EU expansion factor surely weighed heavily in the decision to invade.
Have you seen Putin’s own speeches about how he’s Peter the Great?
I saw something about that. Again with the media the way it is, I didn't give it a whole lot of weight. I mean, it's probably true. Maybe.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:24 pm
by Kbg
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:07 am
Here's a very good article on the Ron Paul Institute website explaining all the things the US got wrong about Ukraine:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... t-ukraine/


We're being led by a bunch of fools, but it's been that way going back many administrations. I checked the ruble to dollar exchange rate yesterday. It's up about 50% from before the Ukraine invasion started. So much for Biden's promise that his sanctions would crater their economy. If his misinformation board had survived, hopefully they would have flagged that statement of his as misinformation.

My sympathies are with Russia on this one. Putin is a strong leader who puts his country first and doesn't care what the globalists say. I had a taxi ride the other day with a Russian speaking Armenian. I asked him what he thought about the Ukraine thing. He told me not to believe anything that the US media says about it (I didn't need to be told that, but he couldn't have known that). He said that Putin is widely popular in Russia because he protected Russia and helped the people, including putting checks on the oligarchs, when the country was being taken over and raped by foreign interests after the Soviet Union fell. If only we had such a strong leader we wouldn't be the laughingstock of the world like we are today. Our oligarchs have our politicians under their control. Trump said he would be a strong leader, but of course he failed miserably in most respects, although there were a few bright spots in what he did.

I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot and Canada or Mexico were threatening to become strong allies of our worst enemy, our military wouldn't bat an eyelash about going in and destroying the place. But if we did that the civilian carnage would be probably ten times worse than what Putin has done to Ukraine. We would have just carpet bombed Toronto and Montreal (shock and awe, you know), rather than surrounding the cities like Putin did and letting them slowly fall without a huge amount of civilian casualties.
You should move then, good for us, good for you. You seem to share a lot of the same views as Fuller.

As for the man himself...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_E._Fuller

Love the Canada/Mexico analogy...wonder why neither of their militaries guard their boarder with the US? That's probably a more relevant question than your hypothetical scenario.

I've been involved in a lot of bombings over the years...in fact I played a not insignificant role in shock and awe. How about a small factually based truth check (assuming you can handle the truth...great line Jack and Tom). Find 50 pictures of Baghdad...the absolute worst you can find that aren't all of the same thing and I'll pick my 50 from Ukraine and/or Chechnya and let's compare notes. Bombs blow things up, cause devastation and kill people (cuz you know, that's what they're supposed to do). But unlike the Russians, the US military fires 99.9% of its shots at military targets and we actually aim which is super helpful in minimizing innocents being killed.

Now if you are looking to put up a good anti-American counter argument to my challenge, I'd bring up World War 2. Bring up the bombing of German and Japanese cities and the use of Atomic bombs on Japan. Throw in some white racism specifically with regards to how the US bombed Japan. At least you would have a decent argument (though not a great one when one places the actions in the period they happened).

And yes, we need a strong leader...like Putin. He's a democratic leader to be emulated.

P.S. Read some Russian history. I'd suggest starting with Catherine or Peter the Great and walking it all the way forward to today. If you like strong leaders you'll find Putin's got nothing on Peter the Great or Stalin. He's a wannabe great Russian leader at best. Now here's something crazy as you read all of that history ask yourself why ARE the Russians and Ukrainians actually fighting? NATO encroachment, really?

Speaking of evil, can we count "evilness" by the number of innocent dead caused/killed by a leader and/or country? If we can, do the math since 1776 between the US and Russia.

P.S.S. You're going to need a calculator that handles very large numbers for the latter.

I love to try and summarize and here's my summary: If we were anything like Russia we would have several more existing states (beyond Mexican California) with boarders probably going from the Arctic to the Panama Canal...and yet we don't.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:31 pm
by Kbg
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:46 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:35 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:43 pm

It's pretty obvious Putin thought Ukraine would be easy. I think that was the overriding factor, but the NATO/EU expansion factor surely weighed heavily in the decision to invade.
Have you seen Putin’s own speeches about how he’s Peter the Great?
I saw something about that. Again with the media the way it is, I didn't give it a whole lot of weight. I mean, it's probably true. Maybe.
I think this one is easy...what was he using to the Russian people to justify the invasion? Ukraine was filled with Nazi's and "real Russians" were being persecuted. "NATO encroachment" may have been the strategic reason....but why did he care about that? Peel it back folks. Also do the Munger question invert...why did the vast majority of eastern and central European countries WANT to join NATO. (Hint: Communist Russian rule sucked...zero interest in a do over.)

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 pm
by vnatale
Where the Shelling Never Stops: Near the ‘Zero Line’ With Ukrainian Soldiers Trying to Maintain in Donbas

Inside life in a bunker with Ukrainian Ph.D. students-turned-fighters as they attempt to hold on against overwhelming firepower and devastating Russian bombardment

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... 2-1368541/

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:21 am
by dualstow
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:46 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:35 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:43 pm

It's pretty obvious Putin thought Ukraine would be easy. I think that was the overriding factor, but the NATO/EU expansion factor surely weighed heavily in the decision to invade.
Have you seen Putin’s own speeches about how he’s Peter the Great?
I saw something about that. Again with the media the way it is, I didn't give it a whole lot of weight. I mean, it's probably true. Maybe.
I don’t understand. I mentioned his own speeches precisely because it’s not the media. “The media the way it is” — it would take a quite a conspiracy, quite a lot of networks to collude with regard to translation. Maybe you meant something else. I suppose there could be an Ahmedinejad “wipe off the map” problem until it’s corrected.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:24 am
by I Shrugged
dualstow wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:21 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:46 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:35 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:43 pm

It's pretty obvious Putin thought Ukraine would be easy. I think that was the overriding factor, but the NATO/EU expansion factor surely weighed heavily in the decision to invade.
Have you seen Putin’s own speeches about how he’s Peter the Great?
I saw something about that. Again with the media the way it is, I didn't give it a whole lot of weight. I mean, it's probably true. Maybe.
I don’t understand. I mentioned his own speeches precisely because it’s not the media. “The media the way it is” — it would take a quite a conspiracy, quite a lot of networks to collude with regard to translation. Maybe you meant something else. I suppose there could be an Ahmedinejad “wipe off the map” problem until it’s corrected.
Then I have to say, no, I haven’t seen his speeches. Sorry about that.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:26 am
by dualstow
He has basically romanticized himself as the new Peter the Great.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:22 pm
by I Shrugged
dualstow wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:26 am
He has basically romanticized himself as the new Peter the Great.
Maybe it’s just salesmanship? Or yes, he could be delusional.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:37 pm
by dualstow
Salesmanship. O0 I like that.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:51 pm
by dualstow
Putin Threatens To Deploy New Satan II Nuclear Missile That Can Reach UK In 3 Minutes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... li=BBnbfcL
shit got real

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:16 pm
by I Shrugged
dualstow wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:51 pm
Putin Threatens To Deploy New Satan II Nuclear Missile That Can Reach UK In 3 Minutes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... li=BBnbfcL
shit got real
The average person will read that headline as, “Putin threatens to launch nuclear missiles at UK.”

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:56 am
by dualstow
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:16 pm
dualstow wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:51 pm
Putin Threatens To Deploy New Satan II Nuclear Missile That Can Reach UK In 3 Minutes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... li=BBnbfcL
shit got real
The average person will read that headline as, “Putin threatens to launch nuclear missiles at UK.”
That threat, however unlikely, is always there. Ever since he warned about other countries interfering.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:48 pm
by Xan
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:16 pm
dualstow wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:51 pm
Putin Threatens To Deploy New Satan II Nuclear Missile That Can Reach UK In 3 Minutes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... li=BBnbfcL
shit got real
The average person will read that headline as, “Putin threatens to launch nuclear missiles at UK.”
Here's something fairly close:
https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/cl ... 95aaf79553

A member of the Russian parliament's defense committee and political ally of Putin said that the Russians must invade the Baltic states in order to protect Kaliningrad, and assuming that triggers NATO's Rule 5, he would then bomb London.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:40 pm
by Kbg
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:16 pm
dualstow wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:51 pm
Putin Threatens To Deploy New Satan II Nuclear Missile That Can Reach UK In 3 Minutes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... li=BBnbfcL
shit got real
The average person will read that headline as, “Putin threatens to launch nuclear missiles at UK.”
All your really need to know about targeting Russia with nuclear weapons...3-5 cities and Russia becomes predominately Asiatic in orientation again.

The RUS know that, as does China.

As Mao once said, bring it. China will walk in and takeover all of Russia with our remnants afterward. (paraphrasing of course)

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:36 pm
by dualstow
Turkish Defense Industry Grows Cautious Over Selling Weapons to Ukraine
… Turkey is increasingly playing both sides of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, standing apart from some other members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization that are sending more weapons to Ukraine in the hope of stalling Moscow’s ongoing assault on the country’s east. While Western countries have moved to isolate Russia, Turkey has maintained an open line to Moscow, welcoming inflows of Russian money and facilitating two rounds of peace talks that ended without an agreement.


Hmm, disappointing although by no means surprising.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkish-de ... 1655803802

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:40 pm
by Xan
And Turkey also could block the membership of Finland and Sweden, since membership is by consensus.

Is there any way we can make a rule to kick a country out??

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:55 am
by dualstow
Maybe they could take a vote on it.

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:27 pm
by Desert
U.S. President Joe Biden and his G7 counterparts will agree on an import ban on new gold from Russia as they broaden sanctions against Moscow for its war against Ukraine, a source familiar with the matter told Reuters on Saturday.

The United States has rallied the world in imposing swift and significant economic costs on Russia to deny President Vladimir Putin the revenue he needs to fund his war in Ukraine.
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-g7- ... 022-06-25/

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:30 am
by ppnewbie
What is everyone’s best guess as to how many people will die from this conflict directly or indirectly. I’m thinking 2 million. Global famine, actual war, diseases of poverty, etc, etc…

Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:34 am
by seajay
Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:48 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:16 pm
dualstow wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:51 pm
Putin Threatens To Deploy New Satan II Nuclear Missile That Can Reach UK In 3 Minutes
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... li=BBnbfcL
shit got real
The average person will read that headline as, “Putin threatens to launch nuclear missiles at UK.”
Here's something fairly close:
https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/cl ... 95aaf79553

A member of the Russian parliament's defense committee and political ally of Putin said that the Russians must invade the Baltic states in order to protect Kaliningrad, and assuming that triggers NATO's Rule 5, he would then bomb London.
Aware of the large land mass expanse of the USSR and number of nukes that would be required the UK long ago devised alternative means of assured mutual destruction that nuking London/UK would potentially invoke. Politically a very sensitive weapon (global extinction of mankind), no doubt having moved further on in the years since, but involved the likes of a vertical 6 mile launch of a combination of plagues into the jet stream. 66% global contamination within the first month, extinction within years.

A quiet response to Putin threats to launch against the UK, as otherwise that just further elevates the risk, and the Brits wouldn't even politically clarify the existence of the technology beyond what they've already stated - along the lines of a third world war involving nukes would be very far ranging and very unpleasant for all (assured mutual destruction as per the design/intent of nukes).

Putin seems to think he might win a nuclear war. A single missile launch at tremendous speed that splits and hits multiple cities - wipe out the UK, a northerly European island as a example case and expect the others to fall into the Kremlin line (accept the loss rather than separately retaliating). However that comes with a big IF/BUT.