Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:29 pm

Kriegs,

Awesome response! I really appreciate you putting the time into this one. It's always nice to have quality debates on a forum as they tend to be pretty rare these days. I'll try to provide same quality in a reply but a little maxed out with work and life right now.

An outline would go something like this.

Differences between 2014 and 2022

Actual laws of Armed Conflict vs. Civilian organizations that report on this stuff

When does a country get involved in another country's business?

However, I think the below is the coup de grâce for just about all of your arguments. The top URL is the long version, the wikipedia URL is the short version.

https://www.csce.gov/sites/helsinkicomm ... rendum.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum

Here's a couple of nice quotes from the CSCE report.

"Hundreds of foreign observers and correspondents watched as 84 percent of eligible voters went to the polls. Over 90 percent of participants, including many non-Ukrainians, cast ballots for independence."

"On December 4, the Central Electoral Commission released the final results of the referendum and presidential election. Support for Ukrainian independence exceeded even the most optimistic poll projections and expectations by Ukrainian nationalists, with even the more Russified east and south voting overwhelmingly for independence. Of the 84.1 percent of the eligible voters—some 32 million people—voting in the referendum, fully 90.32 percent supported the August 24 declaration of independence. The vote against independence was 7.6 percent, and 2.1 percent of the ballots cast were invalid. All in all, over three- quarters of all eligible voters in Ukraine chose independence. 7 Every oblast in Ukraine, including Crimea, voted for independence. Support ranged from over 95 percent in western Ukraine and the Kiev region to 54 percent in Crimea, where ethnic Russians form a substantial majority of the population. Significantly, in industrialized but Russified eastern oblasts such as Donetsk, Kharkiv, Luhansk, Dnipropetrovsk and Zaporizhye, as well as in the southern Black Sea oblasts of Odessa, Mykolaiv and Kherson, the vote for independence exceeded 80 percent in each oblast."

My rhetorical rejoinder...since when does 10-20% of the population get a veto on the freedom and political preferences of the 80-90% to include in the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine?

The fact is Putin saw/sees Ukraine as a very specific threat to Russian nationalism and his personal rule. Way too much freedom, way too close to his border.

Actually, with the above I'm not sure there's really anything more to say about "poor picked on Russians in southern Ukraine" unless you feel democratic rule and democratic vote decisions do not matter. If that's your position, then there's no closing a fundamental philosophical belief of mine and so continued debate would be pointless. Same reason I'm highly anti-Trump and his fan club.

It would be fun for me to spend a little more time in the details of how the Ukrainian military is operating vs. the Russian one based on 2022 vs. 2014. From what I understand the whole Azov thing is a bit more complex and quite a bit less sinister than Russian bots make it out to be (of course Ukrainian bots may be at work as well). The discussion over getting in a country's internal affairs or supporting one side or another in a conflict is on it's face not a "winnable" topic. These questions always come down to what is thought to be important and worthwhile vs. risks and what is neither important nor worthwhile. Reasonable people can be 180 from each other oftentimes and have very solid arguments. I'll try and be more eloquent and evidence based in my longer reply, but the short version is Putin is out of control and needs to be stopped.

P.S. There is a super funny (and I had NO idea) and amazing fact about the Soviet Army vote buried in the report. The reward for anyone who decides to read the report (Vinny...I'm counting on you!)
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:11 pm

joypog wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:19 am
Posting an image 4 days after the invasion and reports from 2014...pales in comparison to the unmitigated atrocity of the Russians over the past 9 months. I'm certain there are war crimes going both ways, but every report shows the mass preponderance perpetrated by the Russians. I see why the Ukranians prefer continued war over Russian occupation.

If they want to keep fighting up to their old borders, let's supply them.
Just playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. You cannot assume you are getting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I don’t have any counterfactual to offer but I’m sure we are getting the news the way they want us to get it.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:22 pm

Oct 2022 UN War Crimes Report

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/fil ... AUV-EN.pdf

Hmmm...In the War Crimes Games the current score is:

Ukraine single digits

Russia hundreds, or did they make it to 4 digits?

Rhetorical questions:

1. Has there ever been a war with zero war crimes?
2. Is there a qualitative difference between a few and endemic?
3. My take based on your prior writing is that you have served in the military. If so, by all weight of evidence who is the disciplined military force organizationally in this conflict? And which military force is likely trying to minimize war crimes and which one seems to use war crimes as a primary mode of operations?

Since the War Crimes Games are scored like golf...winner Ukraine (and not even close).

Commentary/opinion...Ukrainian leadership fully understands they are completely reliant on western military and economic aid right now and they know exactly what would happen to the continuation of aid if their military had a laws of armed conflict problem.

Just for fun...anyone outraged when Trump pardoned the Seal Team NCO. I was. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -seal-iraq

Not the best source, but it's got the basic story correct
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:24 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:11 pm
joypog wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:19 am
Posting an image 4 days after the invasion and reports from 2014...pales in comparison to the unmitigated atrocity of the Russians over the past 9 months. I'm certain there are war crimes going both ways, but every report shows the mass preponderance perpetrated by the Russians. I see why the Ukranians prefer continued war over Russian occupation.

If they want to keep fighting up to their old borders, let's supply them.
Just playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. You cannot assume you are getting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I don’t have any counterfactual to offer but I’m sure we are getting the news the way they want us to get it.
I just offered some pretty good evidence that Ukraine has committed some war crimes...but make sure you read my commentary. The score does matter.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by joypog » Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:51 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:11 pm
joypog wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:19 am
Posting an image 4 days after the invasion and reports from 2014...pales in comparison to the unmitigated atrocity of the Russians over the past 9 months. I'm certain there are war crimes going both ways, but every report shows the mass preponderance perpetrated by the Russians. I see why the Ukranians prefer continued war over Russian occupation.

If they want to keep fighting up to their old borders, let's supply them.
Just playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. You cannot assume you are getting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I don’t have any counterfactual to offer but I’m sure we are getting the news the way they want us to get it.
I'm quite sure of it as well. The Ukrainians have been destroying Russia in the western-propaganda front.

However, we shouldn't just turn off our brains and bury our heads in the sand just because the UKR+MSM are much better propagandists than RUS+Tucker. As KGB noted, the preponderance of evidence is towards a massive balance of Russian malfeasance - mind you, during a Russian invasion into Ukrainian territory.

To use this propaganda skill disparity as an reason to ignore the news is just as knee jerk as blithely accepting the news. Maybe the Ukrainians have an advantage in the infowars because they've (more or less) got the truth on their side...
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:07 pm

Great tangent on the infowar...wow, a complete blowout but a little spin from me.

In infowar a key principle is that you have to be considered credible. Russia has so discredited themselves that I don't think they recover in the west for at least a generation. It's interesting to watch Tucker and I'm amazed at what he's doing. Hannity and Ingraham seem to be smart enough to have backed off the preposterous. Tucker seems to be doubling down.

Not making a prediction, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him get canned if his ratings ever go down. The Murdoch empire seems to moving away from crazy some. The WSJ made the turn early, the NYP and Fox News seem to be turning as well.

If his ratings stay up, he'll be fine.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:10 pm

I only very rarely watch Fox News. What is Tucker saying?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:25 pm

The standard...corruption, they're as bad as the Russians, we should be spending all this money on the border, getting involved in yet another war, let's cut them off.

Some of the above I have sympathy for as well. I just happen to believe what's going on in this particular situation is a bit exceptional in terms of what it means for our future world.

A small American example...we got involved when Iraq invaded Kuwait on the principle of it (and the oil/geo-strategic significance of it). That was OK in my book.

Iraq 2 did not seem at all compelling to me even IF Saddam would have had WMDs. There just wasn't a connection between him and Al-Qaeda.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:43 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:29 pm


P.S. There is a super funny (and I had NO idea) and amazing fact about the Soviet Army vote buried in the report. The reward for anyone who decides to read the report (Vinny...I'm counting on you!)


Sorry this time around I'm going to have to let you down. I've been hit with one thing after another in my life (all good and of my choosing).
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:46 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:25 pm

The standard...corruption, they're as bad as the Russians, we should be spending all this money on the border, getting involved in yet another war, let's cut them off.

Some of the above I have sympathy for as well. I just happen to believe what's going on in this particular situation is a bit exceptional in terms of what it means for our future world.

A small American example...we got involved when Iraq invaded Kuwait on the principle of it (and the oil/geo-strategic significance of it). That was OK in my book.

Iraq 2 did not seem at all compelling to me even IF Saddam would have had WMDs. There just wasn't a connection between him and Al-Qaeda.


Those are what I was hearing several House Republicans say at a meeting called by Marjorie Taylor Greene.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:58 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:29 pm

However, I think the below is the coup de grâce for just about all of your arguments. The top URL is the long version, the wikipedia URL is the short version.

https://www.csce.gov/sites/helsinkicomm ... rendum.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum

snip

My rhetorical rejoinder...since when does 10-20% of the population get a veto on the freedom and political preferences of the 80-90% to include in the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine?
We're not talking about Ukraine splitting off from the Soviet Union three decades ago. I don't really have an opinion on 1991; we're talking about the current situation, where it appears that some Ukrainians don't want to be part of Ukraine anymore. Simply because their parents and grandparents voted to leave the Soviet Union, which they should be applauded for, doesn't prohibit the current population from looking at events since then and choosing a different way. All the differences between people who want to remain part of Ukraine, leave Ukraine, forge closer ties to the EU or stick with Russia; those are all problems for Ukrainians to deal with, not us. I wish we could have mitigated the current disaster, but we didn't, and now we should stop making it worse.
Actually, with the above I'm not sure there's really anything more to say about "poor picked on Russians in southern Ukraine" unless you feel democratic rule and democratic vote decisions do not matter. If that's your position, then there's no closing a fundamental philosophical belief of mine and so continued debate would be pointless.
Yanukovich was elected fairly, as OSCE (the same organization who you referenced RE the 1991 referendum) agrees, in 2010. In 2014, after it became clear that he favored continued economic ties with Russia vs the EU, he was overthrown in a US-backed coup, triggering the events that we're talking about almost a decade later. If your belief in democratic rule and vote results was fundamental to your philosophy, you wouldn't support the outcome that you seem to.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:24 pm

If we are going to move the ball forward in time, let's start talking corruption again...and you may want to read up on his life and times while in power. A little accidental Dioxin poisoning of your opponent in a close election never hurts either.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:56 pm

Please, tell me more about how corrupt and disgusting the political world of Ukraine is.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:00 pm

Just started this book and this section points out how governments act of ignorance, not out of planned forethought, as many seem to believe.

Capture.JPG
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Details are disputed, of such episodes as that involving a Russian Foxtrot submarine six hundred miles out in the Atlantic: its captain, uncertain whether on the surface war had broken out, allegedly threatened to fire his nuclear torpedo when harassed by US warships. The fundamentals are that both sides groped through the Crisis under huge misapprehensions, and that some subordinate officers enjoyed a control over the use of weapons of mass destruction which could have unleashed a catastrophe unintended by either the Kremlin or the White House. The longer I write historical narratives, the more chilled I become by the fog of ignorance in which governments make big decisions. In the twenty-first century, the US, Russia and China understand each other little better than they did six decades ago. It is no easier for the White House to divine the intentions of the angry and half-deranged autocrat who tenants the Kremlin in 2022 than it was those of his predecessor in 1962. All three superpower governments, not to mention lesser nuclear nations, take risks that could one day prove disastrous for humanity, because somebody miscalculates, overreaches or concedes to subordinates opportunities to do so.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:37 am

Fight Fight is an excellent novel that explores a scenario similar to the last post by Vinny. The author is a former F-18 US Navy aircraft carrier pilot.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/415 ... ight-fight

A contemporary Air-Sea heavyweight fight...the like we haven't seen since The Pacific War.


A routine U.S. Navy Freedom-of-Navigation patrol in the South China sea turns deadly when it encounters a covert - and unauthorized - Chinese plot to lay claim to waters of the South China Sea. Misunderstanding, miscalculation, and fear lead to both sides mobilizing, with the United States moving west across the Pacific to meet and engage the People's Liberation Army (Navy) who waits with modern weaponry and determined purpose.


Through detailed research and his insight of modern naval and aerial warfare gained through personal experience, Kevin Miller takes the reader aboard a nuclear powered aircraft carrier heading across the Pacific for the South China Sea - and combat. Today, the South China Sea is one of the most important - and dangerous - bodies of water in the world, with seven countries laying claim to portions of it, and in one case, all of it. Loaded with action, from heavy seas to inbound missiles, Fight Fight explores a scenario that could lead to an unwanted and unplanned - and with today's headlines perhaps inevitable - war between an established and a rising superpower.


Known for his character development, Miller brings Flip, Weed, and Olive along on another sea adventure. Along the way they will encounter a leadership challenge as old as the sea, and the motivations of several Chinese antagonists, from 4-star leadership to front line fighter pilots, are explored.


Today's cutting-edge precision weapons - some real and some imagined - are employed to devastating effect. Could the Chinese - though relentless action or divine luck - do the unthinkable?
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:40 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:37 am

Fight Fight is an excellent novel that explores a scenario similar to the last post by Vinny. The author is a former F-18 US Navy aircraft carrier pilot.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/415 ... ight-fight

A contemporary Air-Sea heavyweight fight...the like we haven't seen since The Pacific War.


A routine U.S. Navy Freedom-of-Navigation patrol in the South China sea turns deadly when it encounters a covert - and unauthorized - Chinese plot to lay claim to waters of the South China Sea. Misunderstanding, miscalculation, and fear lead to both sides mobilizing, with the United States moving west across the Pacific to meet and engage the People's Liberation Army (Navy) who waits with modern weaponry and determined purpose.


Through detailed research and his insight of modern naval and aerial warfare gained through personal experience, Kevin Miller takes the reader aboard a nuclear powered aircraft carrier heading across the Pacific for the South China Sea - and combat. Today, the South China Sea is one of the most important - and dangerous - bodies of water in the world, with seven countries laying claim to portions of it, and in one case, all of it. Loaded with action, from heavy seas to inbound missiles, Fight Fight explores a scenario that could lead to an unwanted and unplanned - and with today's headlines perhaps inevitable - war between an established and a rising superpower.


Known for his character development, Miller brings Flip, Weed, and Olive along on another sea adventure. Along the way they will encounter a leadership challenge as old as the sea, and the motivations of several Chinese antagonists, from 4-star leadership to front line fighter pilots, are explored.


Today's cutting-edge precision weapons - some real and some imagined - are employed to devastating effect. Could the Chinese - though relentless action or divine luck - do the unthinkable?



Seems to definitely be the case!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:55 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:56 pm
Please, tell me more about how corrupt and disgusting the political world of Ukraine is.
It’s very Russian…and public apologies. Sometimes my writing gets strident and obnoxious.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:17 am

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:55 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:56 pm

Please, tell me more about how corrupt and disgusting the political world of Ukraine is.


It’s very Russian…and public apologies. Sometimes my writing gets strident and obnoxious.


Has never come across that way to me...
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by joypog » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:23 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:17 am
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:55 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:56 pm
Please, tell me more about how corrupt and disgusting the political world of Ukraine is.
It’s very Russian…and public apologies. Sometimes my writing gets strident and obnoxious.
Has never come across that way to me...
I'll second that...but I'm almost always in agreement with kgb so I may be overlooking any rough edges in his posts.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am

On the bigger picture of this internationally…

Should we have cared when Italy invaded Ethiopia?

Should we have cared when Germany invaded the Balkins?

Should we have cared when Japan invaded China?

Should we have cared when Iraq invaded Kuwait?

Throw in Korea, Vietnam? I’m sure there are more.

IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?

For that matter, was France in error when they supported a bunch of tax cheats in North America? Parliament was elected according to the laws at the time.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:08 pm

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm

I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies. And let’s not forget Russian civilians. They didn’t ask to be swept up into this either. They’re being conscripted; their lives are being uprooted as well. And let’s not forget foglifter’s posts.

I just don’t see appeasement as a wise long-term solution, even if Kissinger does.
Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am

IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?
+1 to this rhetorical question
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:35 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:25 pm

I don’t want Tortoise or Kriegs to think all people who support Ukraine and more specifically the idea of us arming Ukraine as vacuous “Russia bad / Ukraine good” and “I support the current thing” non-thinkers. I mean, if you do believe that, so be it, but it’s not the case.

I know the Ukraine government is corrupt. That doesn’t mean we should let the Russians roll in and bomb civilians just because Putin craves one last Peter the Great hurrah before he dies. And let’s not forget Russian civilians. They didn’t ask to be swept up into this either. They’re being conscripted; their lives are being uprooted as well. And let’s not forget foglifter’s posts.

I just don’t see appeasement as a wise long-term solution, even if Kissinger does.

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:30 am


IDK, is no corruption a new standard to oppose unlawful invasion of sovereign borders?


+1 to this rhetorical question


Were we supposed to have been been able to click "foglifter's" so that it would bring us somewhere?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:40 pm

I'm in the camp that if the US is going to war, be it Real War, Proxy War, Amicus Curiae, Arm's Dealing, whatever...

Then it should be war. No conditions. We bomb the shit out of everything. Rape the women. Steal the priceless artifacts. Salt the earth. Enslave the conquered. Appropriate the natural resources. Heads on Pikes.

If you don't have the stomach for that, then No War. This half assed shit is stupid. War or No War. There is no Try.

Putting US blood and treasure on half measures just exacerbates and extends the problem. The only reason to not go HAM is because it is more profitable to extend the war and keep selling munitions.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:55 pm

This is all so astounding regarding Russia that I could not resist sharing it here:

Mother Russia
1 Triumph in Space, Hunger on Earth
In 1957 the bleeping Sputnik satellite delivered to its Russian owners, bursting with pride, their biggest propaganda triumph since victory in the Great Patriotic War, twelve years earlier. Sputnik supposedly implied a capability to dominate US skies with nuclear weapons. In April 1961, there followed another space achievement which put the fear of God, or rather of the godless communists, into millions of patriotic Americans: the USSR won the race to become the first to propel a man into earth orbit. Yuri Gagarin’s space flight made a superstar of the handsome young lieutenant, promptly elevated to major. In homes across Russia news of his flight, broadcast by the famous Radio Moscow announcer Yuri Levitan, prompted an orgy of national rejoicing. ‘People ran out into the street, laughed, congratulated each other,’ wrote young Muscovite Galina Artemieva. ‘It was such a happy, unforgettable day!’ The world nervously hailed a superpower seen to be outpacing America. Many people, some of them in Washington, saw the Soviet spaceman as symbolic of a communist society apparently advancing by giant steps. They even began to delude themselves that some of the blizzard of statistics emerging from the Soviet Union, asserting its own military, economic and social achievements, might be authentic.

Extraordinary though it seems today, such influential gurus as Paul Samuelson and J.K. Galbraith predicted that the Soviet economy was likely within a generation to overtake that of the United States. Henry Kissinger, then teaching at Harvard, wrote that ‘the United States cannot afford another decline like that which has characterized the past decade and half’, which threatened to ‘find us reduced to Fortress America in a world in which we had become largely irrelevant’.

The full Gagarin story did not emerge for decades. It lays bare the rickety, rackety, mortally dangerous technology that was deployed to make possible the Soviet Union’s achievement. As the pilot accelerated through the atmosphere, for several terrifying seconds his rocket’s third-stage engine signalled a malfunction. Later, as the Vostok 1 spacecraft decelerated from 18,000 mph for re-entry, it failed to slow sufficiently quickly for its braking engine to fall away. The capsule spun wildly; Gagarin could feel its protective shell cracking, burning. He was reprieved only when the braking engine cable snapped. Having ejected above Russia after 106 minutes, the spaceman’s survival pack fell off and the breathing valve on his helmet stuck. His reserve parachute blew open accidentally, which could have killed him. When he finally landed in a potato field near the Volga, the world’s first cosmonaut was obliged to borrow a horse to get to a phone to summon rescuers.

Here was, indeed, a symbolic vision of post-Stalin Russia: a society endowed with remarkable scientific and technical skills, unmatched by production capability. The country could not build a car, washing machine or electric toaster that anyone outside its own borders would choose to buy. Mice once invaded an arsenal in central Russia and ate the insulation on missiles stored there: hundreds of cats had to be recruited to address the plague. When Sergei Korolev, the Soviet rocket designer who played a prominent part in Gagarin’s flight, heard of this, he was reduced to hysterical laughter. The general in charge of the arsenal was sacked; fortunate not to be shot. In October 1960 a new R-16 rocket exploded on its launch pad, incinerating almost a hundred people including the officer in command of Soviet missile forces, whose remains were identified only by a marshal’s shoulder pad and half-melted office key found in the ashes.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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