Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Dieter
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:42 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:07 pm
This is a relatively short Lex. Less than an hour.

There is something in this with everyone to agree with it within it.

It is from three months ago. Lex reminds us that he did visit Ukraine during the war and, at some point, will be giving us a podcast regarding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uHGlfeCBbE

Noam Chomsky: Putin, Ukraine, China, and Nuclear War | Lex Fridman Podcast #316
And something for everyone to disagree with 🙂

But interesting

Still listening

Thanks for sharing
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:48 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:15 pm

Would it be wrong to say Chomsky is a kinder, gentler Marxist? That’s been my impression. I’m sure it’s more complicated, but that’s my 10,000 foot view of him.

I just can’t take that seriously but I’m sure he is able to make some good logical points about it. Whenever I’ve been exposed to his ideas I’ve run for cover.


I have heard his name many, many times over the years but almost certain that I have never ready anything by him or prior to today heard anything he had to say.

Try listening to the start of the podcast and stop it whenever you want to if you find it not to your liking. I found it so fascinating I listened to it twice in an attempt to get the things I missed the first time around when my mind was distracted by something else.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:53 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:47 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:15 pm

Would it be wrong to say Chomsky is a kinder, gentler Marxist? That’s been my impression. I’m sure it’s more complicated, but that’s my 10,000 foot view of him.

I just can’t take that seriously but I’m sure he is able to make some good logical points about it. Whenever I’ve been exposed to his ideas I’ve run for cover.


He was demanding that anyone who hadn't gotten the covid injection should be put in camps and left to starve..... Aaaaaand as soon as I wrote it, I get why the leftists like him so much.


After a quick Bing search I could not find anything about camps. I did find these as his direct quotes:

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/noa ... om-society

“People who refuse to accept vaccines, I think the right response for them is not to force them to, but rather to insist that they be isolated. If people decide, ‘I am willing to be a danger to the community by refusing to vaccinate,’ they should say then, ‘Well, I also have the decency to isolate myself. I don’t want a vaccine, but I don’t have the right to run around harming people.’ That should be a convention,” said Chomsky.

https://news.yahoo.com/noam-chomsky-unv ... 00487.html

Chomsky, 92, compared people who do not want to get vaccinated to those who do not want to stop at red lights in traffic, saying that if people treasure their liberty so much, they should "find a way to protect it and secure it for [themselves]."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by boglerdude » Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:02 am

“Such people have to be– they should have the decency to remove themselves from the community, if they refuse to do that, then measures have to be taken to safeguard the community from them”

“Then comes the practical question that you asked: How can we get food to them? Well, that’s actually their problem.”

Chomsky, the anti-war symbol of the century, explaining exactly how it happens
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:45 am

boglerdude wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:02 am

“Such people have to be– they should have the decency to remove themselves from the community, if they refuse to do that, then measures have to be taken to safeguard the community from them”

“Then comes the practical question that you asked: How can we get food to them? Well, that’s actually their problem.”

Chomsky, the anti-war symbol of the century, explaining exactly how it happens


Seems like he gave somewhat of a libertarian answer?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by DogBreath » Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:14 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:45 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:02 am
“Such people have to be– they should have the decency to remove themselves from the community, if they refuse to do that, then measures have to be taken to safeguard the community from them”

“Then comes the practical question that you asked: How can we get food to them? Well, that’s actually their problem.”

Chomsky, the anti-war symbol of the century, explaining exactly how it happens
Seems like he gave somewhat of a libertarian answer?
How is that libertarian? You forcibly drag people away from their homes and mode of transportation and then expect them to fend for themselves to get food to survive?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:19 am

DogBreath wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:14 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:45 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:02 am
“Such people have to be– they should have the decency to remove themselves from the community, if they refuse to do that, then measures have to be taken to safeguard the community from them”

“Then comes the practical question that you asked: How can we get food to them? Well, that’s actually their problem.”

Chomsky, the anti-war symbol of the century, explaining exactly how it happens
Seems like he gave somewhat of a libertarian answer?
How is that libertarian? You forcibly drag people away from their homes and mode of transportation and then expect them to fend for themselves to get food to survive?
I think that's what Rachel Maddow and Anderson Cooper tell the hopelessly confused people libertarianism is.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:52 am

DogBreath wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:14 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:45 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:02 am
“Such people have to be– they should have the decency to remove themselves from the community, if they refuse to do that, then measures have to be taken to safeguard the community from them”

“Then comes the practical question that you asked: How can we get food to them? Well, that’s actually their problem.”

Chomsky, the anti-war symbol of the century, explaining exactly how it happens
Seems like he gave somewhat of a libertarian answer?
How is that libertarian? You forcibly drag people away from their homes and mode of transportation and then expect them to fend for themselves to get food to survive?
You see concentration camps are okay, as long as your side is on the right side of history in terms of supposedly protecting public health or whatever the cultish fad of the day is. I'm pretty sure Chomsky is Jewish, and we're always hearing about the Holocaust and how we must never forget it lest we repeat it. But then something else comes along that's just a bit different, and humans never seem to have learned the real lessons of the past, like the real kernel of truth at the heart of the matter. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given human nature.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:34 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:04 am
I heard but have not confirmed that Zelinsky did an interview with the Economist and stated that Kiev will fight Russia until the 1991 Ukrainian borders are restored.

Does anyone think the US government should keep providing military aid until Kiev occupies Crimea as well as the Donbass?
I'll leave it to the war planners and the budgeting dept. My sentiment doesn't matter. But since you asked, I support materiel for Kyiv/Kiev at least until they repel the Russians. You've heard talk about Crimea. What's happening on the ground is Russians in Ukraine and Russians bombing Ukraine, including civilians.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:37 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:52 am
You see concentration camps are okay, as long as your side is on the right side of history in terms of supposedly protecting public health or whatever the cultish fad of the day is. I'm pretty sure Chomsky is Jewish, and we're always hearing about the Holocaust and how we must never forget it lest we repeat it. But then something else comes along that's just a bit different, and humans never seem to have learned the real lessons of the past, like the real kernel of truth at the heart of the matter. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given human nature.
Yes, massacres happen all over the world despite the "never again" refrain. That really doesn't have anything to do with Jews, and the fact that Chomsky is Jewish is immaterial as far as I'm concerned. If anything, he has already gotten into hot water in France because the French thought he was supporting a Holocaust denier. He was supporting free speech according to the wiki page. As far as I'm concerned, he's a traitor to Jews and to Israel, and I don't get your post at all.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:44 pm

You don't get the irony of a Jewish guy supporting concentration camps for people who have the good sense to stay away from an experimental, barely-tested vaccine?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:33 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:44 pm
You don't get the irony of a Jewish guy supporting concentration camps for people who have the good sense to stay away from an experimental, barely-tested vaccine?
Sounds more like he's supporting banishment to me. You invoked concentration camps because he's Jewish and connected your own dots from there. But all kinds of Jews have all kinds of opinions. If you want to try that bit, you join the thousands of people doing it with Palestine, or with neocons like Wolfowitz. Yeah, when you think about it for a second, your bit has already been done to death. And it's well, kind of stupid. Rather like finding out a kid who survived cancer did something rude, dishonest or illegal, and scolded him because he was lucky enough to recover, as if he is different from people who never had cancer.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:48 pm

I'm not scolding him for surviving the Holocaust. I'm scolding him for wanting to take away somebody's liberty just because he disagrees with the other person's calculation on the risk/reward of a brand new experimental medical product.

I don't see your analogy at all.

Some people are funny about ethnicity/nationality as if any mention of it is verboten. I have German blood in me. If you want to call me a Nazi, go ahead. I'll probably think about it for a few minutes and either agree or disagree with you, but either way, I won't be offended. I am what I am. I also have English blood in me, so if you want to call me a nasty colonizer, that's fine too. Call me whatever you want. I really don't care.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:53 pm

I'm not into name calling, and I don't think you're a nazi or a colonizer. But, I do think it's tacky to invoke concentration camps just because this guy, Chomsky, has extreme views about what to do with non vaxxers. It's weak.

I saw an all you can eat Chinese buffet the other day and I walked in there and said How can you guys, of all people, waste food like that? Your parents survived Mao.

/s
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by DogBreath » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:15 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:33 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:44 pm
You don't get the irony of a Jewish guy supporting concentration camps for people who have the good sense to stay away from an experimental, barely-tested vaccine?
Sounds more like he's supporting banishment to me. You invoked concentration camps because he's Jewish and connected your own dots from there..
It seems like splitting hairs to differentiate concentration camps from banishment. Especially after seeing what literally happened during Covid in Australia (and China for that matter). Forcibly dragging someone from their home and means of transportation, without due process, is draconian and fascist.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:20 pm

You’re right. What happened with the lockdowns is the same as shooting people in the head, and gassing other people with zyklon b and then putting them into ovens for incineration. Well, putting some of them into the ovens alive, but there I go again, splitting hairs. What happened in 2020 is the same as concentration camps, and we should all wear yellow stars in protest.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:22 pm

You know what? I thought about it a bit, and I see your point. I get upset with my wife sometimes, because some guy say will cut her off in traffic, and when she gets home and tells me the story, she'll mention the color of his skin to me. Sometimes I'll say to her, "I really don't care what color his skin is. Just tell me your story and leave out his skin color." The thing with her is she was born and raised in South America, where talking about skin color is much less taboo than it is here. In some ways, they are much less racist than USA people, and in other ways, they are more racist, but everybody gets along just the same, and nobody pretends to be offended by microaggressions, etc. Maybe because for the most part all of them are poor no matter what the color of their skin is.

Anyway, when I made my initial remark about Chomsky, I should have just left out his ethnicity. I apologize if I offended anybody. I hope Smithers won't jump at me now and say that real men talk whatever smack they want and own it. Haha, just kidding.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:23 pm

Listen guys, we’re not going to see eye to eye on this, so if I don’t respond to future comments about Noam Chomsky, don’t take it personally.
In case it’s not clear, I do find your comparisons irritating, but it’s your opinion(s) and you have a right to it. I just don’t feel like commenting further. Let me know when the convo drifts back to Putin and Ukraine.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:30 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:23 pm

Listen guys, we’re not going to see eye to eye on this, so if I don’t respond to future comments about Noam Chomsky, don’t take it personally.
In case it’s not clear, I do find your comparisons irritating, but it’s your opinion(s) and you have a right to it. I just don’t feel like commenting further. Let me know when the convo drifts back to Putin and Ukraine.


Which was my purpose for putting here the discussion with Chomsky and Lex.

As I far know .. the only person who has actually listened to it is Dieter ..... everyone else has just commented about Chomsky's reputation to them.

Listen to the discussion of what he has to say about Ukraine and forget about your opinions of Chomsky. Agree or disagree with what he has to say in that discussion about Ukraine and the war.

I came to listening to the discussion with having no opinions regarding Chomsky. I ended up being so impressed with what he had to say that I listened to it twice.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:33 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:53 pm

I saw an all you can eat Chinese buffet the other day and I walked in there and said How can you guys, of all people, waste food like that? Your parents survived Mao.

/s
Ahahahahahahaha.

Credit owed on this comeback
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by DogBreath » Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:46 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:20 pm
You’re right. What happened with the lockdowns is the same as shooting people in the head, and gassing other people with zyklon b and then putting them into ovens for incineration. Well, putting some of them into the ovens alive, but there I go again, splitting hairs. What happened in 2020 is the same as concentration camps, and we should all wear yellow stars in protest.
concentration camp
noun
A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect.

I don't see anything about killings, gassings, or incineration in that definition. Not all concentration camps were/are death camps, and that was what I was referring to. But I certainly see where you're coming from. No need to carry this further. Apologies if you were offended.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:21 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:33 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:53 pm

I saw an all you can eat Chinese buffet the other day and I walked in there and said How can you guys, of all people, waste food like that? Your parents survived Mao.

/s
Ahahahahahahaha.

Credit owed on this comeback
I have to disagree on the comeback. I mean I guess it sounds funny at first reading, but it still seems to me like a poor analogy to what I had said about concentration camps. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought Mao killed a lot of people by underfeeding them not by overfeeding them. Or maybe the joke went over my head.

Also, I wanted to point out to you, dualstow, if you're still following this thread, that I think we were posting almost simultaneously a little while back and you may have missed my post where I apologized for bringing up Chomsky's ethnicity. I do see your point about that being in poor taste. Maybe if I had worded it differently to point out the irony as sort of an afterthought, rather than as being somehow central to my point, it wouldn't have seemed out of line quite so much.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:43 pm

Vinny,

I listened to Chomsky with Fridman. I have to say that I was more impressed than I expected to be with Chomsky. He is consistently anti-war, which is fantastic.

The problem with the guy, and also with Fridman, is they are too idealistic. It would be great if the world worked the way they think it should, but it doesn't. Chomsky talked a lot of sense in the interview about how promises were made to Russia that NATO wouldn't expand, and he talked about how the promises were broken. And then he just jumps to saying that the war in Ukraine is all Putin's fault. Now to his credit he says the war in Ukraine is no worse than America's invasions of Vietnam or Iraq. Here's the difference. Vietnam and Iraq are halfway around the world from the USA. Ukraine is right next to Russia. Why do we have to get involved in places that are halfway around the globe? If someone was meddling in Canadian politics and threatening to install an anti-American regime with anti-American ideals and security guarantees in Canada, America would not even blink an eyelid before invading Canada. How is that different from what Russia is doing right now? How is our security improved by NATO being in Ukraine? Would we be any less safe if NATO stopped at Poland instead of continually pushing to be in Ukraine also? I think not. In fact, our security would be improved by stopping at Poland, because we wouldn't be risking a nuclear confrontation with Russia. So, obviously NATO expanding into Ukraine isn't about our national security so much as it is about making money for NATO contractors.

At the end of the day, the USA is basically just involved in a border skirmish between cousins that is none of our business and never was and probably wouldn't have happened in the first place if it hadn't been for our meddling over the last 15 years.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:40 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:21 pm
SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:33 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:53 pm

I saw an all you can eat Chinese buffet the other day and I walked in there and said How can you guys, of all people, waste food like that? Your parents survived Mao.

/s
Ahahahahahahaha.

Credit owed on this comeback
I have to disagree on the comeback. I mean I guess it sounds funny at first reading, but it still seems to me like a poor analogy to what I had said about concentration camps. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought Mao killed a lot of people by underfeeding them not by overfeeding them. Or maybe the joke went over my head.
That's why it's funny stuper, because in this scenario the Chinese were wasting food in spite of so many Chinese starving at the hands of the communists. I mean....a better one would be Chinese advocating starvation of people they don't like but it wouldn't be as funny.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:28 pm

Ok, I guess I grant that it's funny. I'm not sure I grant that it's anything like what I said about Chomsky and concentration camps; more like just the opposite.
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